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Old 02-05-2014, 10:49 PM   #1
fizzypants
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1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

7 handed, Hero ($800) makes it $12 with 65dd in the HJ

CO ($150, recreational player) calls

SB calls, BB calls



Flop ($48): 4s 7s 2d
Hero bets $20, CO makes it $55, folds around to Hero

1) Should Hero lead or check/call here?

2) Is it even worth it to chase our OESD with a flush draw out there?

3) Suppose if we check and CO bets pot, should we be really calling considering we're OOP and have no implied odds plus there being a FD out there?

4) I'm confused of when to/not to chase OESD in general. Any advice appreciated.

Last edited by fizzypants; 02-05-2014 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:52 PM   #2
chriswt
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

Assuming you had 65dd instead of 67dd as posted because that makes top pair. Against a recreational player with such a short stack, he's normally not raising this flop and committing himself with anything worse than a set or top 2. Wouldn't worry too much about the flush here because he's generally not raising with 2 overs and a flush draw (unless you've seen otherwise). That said, I think we can fold here unless he was a) deeper, or b) shown willingness to raise flops, and more importantly, raise/fold flops.
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Old 02-05-2014, 11:15 PM   #3
fizzypants
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriswt View Post
Assuming you had 65dd instead of 67dd as posted because that makes top pair. Against a recreational player with such a short stack, he's normally not raising this flop and committing himself with anything worse than a set or top 2. Wouldn't worry too much about the flush here because he's generally not raising with 2 overs and a flush draw (unless you've seen otherwise). That said, I think we can fold here unless he was a) deeper, or b) shown willingness to raise flops, and more importantly, raise/fold flops.
Yes sorry, edited.

Coming back to the hand, so is bet/folding the right play regardless here? Because I think check/calling OOP is fishy. Because so often, we miss turn and are left in bad spots.
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:21 AM   #4
atsuss33
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

IMO, bet/folding here is just fine. Villain doesn't have a deep enough stack to speculate a call. Villain's next move on the turn is likely an all-in bet, which means he probably flopped a set. You could've check/called the flop, but IMO a c-bet on the flop with your hand in your position is an overall profitable play in the long run. As played, fold and find a better spot.
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:47 PM   #5
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

We didn't narrow the field with this small preflop raise, plus didn't even end up with absolute position on the world. Therefore the raise preflop was a failure (not sure if this result was expected or not, but it is a failure none-the-less).

I like the small bet on the flop. Most villains are typically going to play fit/fold to any "reasonable" bet, and this bet is perfectly reasonable so it will accomplish the goal (of taking down this pot postflop with 6 high if no one else has anything). Plus it also gives ourselves good odds, perhaps buys us a free card, plus usually gives us good odds facing a moron 3bet size. Here the 3bet size gave us odds of about 3.5:1. Our OESD is well disguised. We will be OOP, plus the flush outs might be scary to our opponent (I doubt he has a flush, and it's even *possible* we could rep it ourselves), but all told I think we have a call here.

ETA: I didn't actually notice Villain's stack size the first time around, but I think Villain easily has enough back for us to call. We only have to make up about ~$55 or so and he has $100 back and is most likely never folding after sticking in a huge chunk of his stack. I wouldn't attempt to rep flush cards though as I doubt we have any FE.

ETA: And bet/folding draws, in general, sucks. Bet/folding is made for TP hands which can easily be behind and are unlikely to improve to best, not for hands that have nutmaking potential.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 02-06-2014 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:29 PM   #6
DaYu
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzypants View Post

1) Should Hero lead or check/call here?
Definitely lead. We get hands with lots of equity (overcards) to fold most of the time. We don't want to showdown. We're usually going to miss our draw. Our edge comes from aggression (c-betting).

Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzypants View Post
2) Is it even worth it to chase our OESD with a flush draw out there?
No. Stacks aren't deep enough. (I'm assuming your question is whether or not to call the raise OTF).


Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzypants View Post
3) Suppose if we check and CO bets pot, should we be really calling considering we're OOP and have no implied odds plus there being a FD out there?
I think you know the answer to this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzypants View Post
4) I'm confused of when to/not to chase OESD in general. Any advice appreciated.
OESD definitely has less value than a flush draw, since it hits less often (1 less out), and it's a weaker hand (flushes beat straights).

The benefit to the OESD, though, is that it's more disguised. People often won't see that the straight got there, while 3 hearts on board are usually pretty obvious even to fish.

Try looking for spots where you can rep a made hand-- get aggressive with your OESD sometimes.
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:02 PM   #7
Dirty313
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

either fold or all in

im leaning towards an all in if you feel he folds to major aggression a large majority of th etime
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:09 PM   #8
Hainesy_2KT
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

i was leaning towards the call but on reflection actually i like the all-in 2bh, you can't go too wrong erring on the side of aggression, if you have any fold equity at all it's not half bad, you've got the back-door flush too. exposing yourself to variance is the downside.
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:13 PM   #9
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

Lol at shoving. Dude just stuck in 1/3rd of his stack; he's considering folding? This is what makes calling / trying to hit profitable.

Gheisfoldingexactlynever,imoG
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:14 PM   #10
Pay4Myschool
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty313 View Post
either fold or all in

im leaning towards an all in if you feel he folds to major aggression a large majority of th etime
I'd agree if we were a tad deeper but this guy just put in 40% of his stack
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Old 02-07-2014, 04:15 AM   #11
Hainesy_2KT
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Lol at shoving. Dude just stuck in 1/3rd of his stack; he's considering folding? This is what makes calling / trying to hit profitable.

Gheisfoldingexactlynever,imoG
yeh it's very aggressive and our fold equity may not be amazing however the guy is a fish with half a stack, so it's hard to know what his thoughts are about stack/pot sizes and pot commitment etc. even if we're getting called 99% of the time the play still isn't terrible, we're drawing to the nuts and have a back-door flush so we're gonna show the best hand somewhere around 1/3 of the time.

also if a straight card lands it might stop the action, by getting the chips in now there's no danger of you not getting paid if you hit (if he decides to call).

i would never have thought to shove 2bh i was gonna call but saw dirty mention it and thought it was a pretty fresh idea
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Old 02-07-2014, 08:39 AM   #12
jesse123
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

I fold after the raise. V is too short stacked. There's only 6 pure outs. I weight Vs range heavily towards overpairs and FDs. Something like A2 of spades would be a nightmare. What's V raising that he's going to fold to with an all-in re-raise? Not much. There's almost no FE.

1. Leading is better than check-calling. Getting raised by rec player here isn't the norm.
2. Sometimes it's worth it to chase a SD with FD possible, just not here.
3. Easy fold. Review pot odds.
4. OESD are ideal in multiway pots with no FDs and a small bet. At the other end of the spectrum, it's worse when it's head's up, there are FDs, and the bet is large. The other big factor is how much money Vs have behind. If they're really deep, OESD's become more valuable. If they're kind of short stacked (like here), they're not really valuable. There's lots of shades of gray with all of the factors.
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:20 AM   #13
UpUpAway
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You have no FE. When semi bluffing you always want some FE. I would just fold.
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:07 AM   #14
Wilverine
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

I always bet/fold this flop.
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Old 02-07-2014, 01:55 PM   #15
warped
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

never bet/fold here. once you bet its an easy call. hes only raising us 35 which give us immediate odds to call. the worst 2 hands we can be up against here are a set or a pair/flush draw. if they have a set we have 8 outs. if they have a pair flush draw (pair would have to be the 2) we have 10 outs (6 staight, 4 pair) we know that if we hit the staight hes getting it in with us which gives us the implied odds just on the next card of 5.88:1 on our $35. so our odds of being good on the turn are either 16% or 20% and we need 14% on our next card
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:00 PM   #16
Loading....
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

We're calling $35 to win what's in the pot ($123) plus his remaining $85 so $208. 35/243
= 14.5%

We have 8 outs on the turn (assuming we aren't worried about flush draws since he raised)
With 5 known cards, there are 47 cards left in the deck. 8/45 = 18%

So with 18% of hitting straight on the turn and only needing 14.5% we can rule out folding.

When a recreational player raises me 1/3rd of their stack I assume I have 0 FE so I think shoving here is bad.

That leaves us with call. But maybe it's wrong because he can still river full house or backdoor flush even if we do make our straight.

Edit: Missed the fact that we have the 3 flush so diamond turns also help us. That must make it even more of a call.
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:31 PM   #17
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3: OESD facing raise OTF

Basically, we're getting 5.9:1 to win his stack. I admit he didn't have as much back as I originally thought (he only has $83 left, not $100 that I stated earlier), which makes it definitely thinner. As stated above, we do have a backdoor, which helps offset the times he has a strong redraw. But he's still never folding after strongly sticking in this much of his stack, so imo it's above breakeven. And I believe even HOC states that in thinnish ~breakeven cases, the best move is to play on in order to increase our gambooley/moron image at the table.

GmoronG
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