This happened twice to me in 2 days so I feel like it may be an overall common spot.

2/5 in Vegas playing at a pretty aggressive table. Decent amount of light 3betting and players with good situational awareness. UTG makes a standard raise to 20, one caller and button makes a wide (I assume he’s wider here) 3 bet to 55. What do you do with JJ/QQ in the SB?

I’m trying not to be results oriented, but yesterday I popped it to 200 and got railed by KK and today I cold called and the original raiser made it 200 and I folded. There’s no way you ever fold to the initial raise, right?? So what’s the optimal play?

Assume at least $1k effective.

Could be way off here, but I would probably 4bet and fold to 5bet. Don't really want to be calling squeezes oop likely 3-4 way here and setmining with QQ, assuming we know btn/co is capable of squeezing reasonably wide. We'll take it down pre a bunch and I think a hand like JJ/QQ plays better in a 4bet pot hu than in a 3bet pot 4 way.

Maybe with TT/JJ we could overcall here sometimes though?

No one else?

Why do you assume the button has a wide range when hes 3 betting an UTG raiser?

Way too V dependent, imo. I'd mix in some calls to set mine, some calls to continue unimproved, and some 4-bet/folds against average Vs. Against tourney donks, I'd often be looking to at least call 5-bets, and against the splashiest, I'll GII here, even for 200 BBs.

Lol 55

Anyway just flat and maybe you’ll get to see a flop.

With the information given, I 4 bet here to $175. There are very few situations where I'm cold calling a 3 bet - being in the worst position possible at an aggro table with JJ/QQ is not one of them.

Should start

If UTG 4 bets we're in a horrible spot

No we just fold. If utg calls our 4b/5bets is then we’re in a terrible spot. It’s often just a fold/4b but 55 makes it a coldcall.

As said earlier, it's super V dependent. You said the table has a reasonable amount of light 3betting, which makes me want to raise to 200. But if this V has not yet 3b, or you have some other read that he is extremely tight (ie the tiny raise size), then take the cheap odds he's giving you and call.

literally quoted this to +1 it but then I saw your follow up comment, which is actually the complete opposite of what I was going to originally write

A wise man once said, never cold call a 3bet or greater. Either raise or fold.

There are two reasons for this, the first being you can take it down right then and there or at least be in the captain's seat to to take it down with a cbet on the flop.

The other more important reason is that if you're not strong enough raise there then you're not strong enough to call either.

Here, you're basically facing a 4bet and fold to 5bet or be OOP on the flop for a big pot or just folding and losing half a blind. Just fold and lose half that blind, wait for a better spot.

Obviously this is super villian dependent though. Same with that very silly 55 3bet. That's so low, you could feasibly make it an argument for just cold calling, but then you're giving the OR huge incentive to squeeze and drive you out if he's holding anything that isn't speculative and you are still out of position.

I think these are easy folds unless you put either villain on a pretty wide range here - and that they are unlikely to float...

This. So V-dependent.

I do think $200 was too big. You'll get the same results for $150 or so.

I, personally, love the aggro tables. I tighten up, pay attention to what gets to showdown, and usually make money. Seems easier to make money at these tables than at the passive station-y tables -- at least you make it faster

There's a lot more calling when deep. I don't have a problem w 4b QQ frequently, but JJ really plays quite well as a call when it's only $55. 200...300...400.bb deep you're going to have more calls, period. Now, had the 3b been more, you might start leaning more toward a different line. For sure it's V dependent to an extent, and there are situations where JJ is a fold, but not here, not yet.

Yeah, I don’t hate either of those hands as a cold call 200bb+ deep.
Usually 4!ing Queens. Flatting a small % of hands here isn’t ridiculous.

That feels like real mubsy play, or just uncomfortable with playing deep. In either event, probably time to rack up your chips if you are trying to justify just calling pre with KK (not saying that's what you said, merely my problem with that justification).

Put me on the 4 bet into fold or call group, being incredibly V dependent.

Well of course you don't cold call KK at high frequency. You just have more 4bets than KK just as you ought to have more calls than JJ. KK and JJ are the foundations for those ranges.

I made my bones in Macau where buyins are 250bb... I stand by everything I said - deep stacks and ICM are two real considerations that are often used to excuse bad decision making.

The only thing that makes a flat viable there is how absurdly low the 3bet is. If you had position then it becomes a bit more viable. Either way, you're playing passively for a large pot OOP with a hand that won't see too many flops you like 3 ways.

What happens if it's a low board and you c/r and they jam? You still going to be happy with your overpair? QQ is effectively the same as 99 or 22 here. You're set mining and set mining OOP for 11bb of your 200bb stack when there's a very strong chance it get's squeezed is very unlikely to be profitable in the long term.

You 4bet/fold to 5bet or 4bet then jam flop hoping not to get coolered.

Like I said, it’s 55, so it’s ok to call w play nice and deep in this spot. JJ also does just fine multi-way. I have to say though that it’s not about passive play, calling doesn’t mean passive. Neither does checking.

...and enough of this nonsense already. OP experienced exactly why you can flat JJ particularly when deep. It’s not clear whether we are ahead of any of the ranges here and we are almost certainly behind any range that calls a 4b or 5 bets. Still deep and oop that’s a dirty place to be. The hand is strong enough to call, esp for 55, and a fold to further aggression in this spot until we know more. It’s a satisfactory call w some frequency facing this sizing and action that has nothing to do with passivity or Macau or running into KK or set mining or any other useless noise being thrown around.

i just mentioned Macau because he assumed I didn't understand deep stack nuance, I'm that same lagtard that raises 67s from mp and calls a btn 3bet because of deep stacks. Yet I'd never cold call a 3bet with QQ from sb.

It's a fold or raise binary decision tree. The noise here is all this talk about flatting.

this is what he should have done https://youtu.be/IlHaKZdcgjQ?t=181