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Old 05-11-2017, 11:40 AM   #51
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
Really? Didnt villain call off like 150$ on the flop?

Even though i get your point, i think this is classic resultoriented thinking wich 2+2 LLSNL is well known for.
Ha, well that's overridden by my other rule, which is: no one ever folds a draw on the flop ever never ever infinity.

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Old 05-11-2017, 11:50 AM   #52
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

Yeah i understand. No matter how many arguments you get against you, youre such a genius that you have this book of rules to cover it all. I rest my case.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:16 PM   #53
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

Even fish vaguely 'know' they will hit their draw 1 time in 3. So on the flop they think they can call a PSB. They have no idea about seeing one card vs 2 and us firing again ott. So yeah, they won't fold otf for a big bet but will fold ott when they don't know the math but do know there's only one card left to hit.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:49 PM   #54
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

I love when Vs show us their cards for the sake of the impending thread.
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Old 05-11-2017, 04:29 PM   #55
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
Yeah i understand. No matter how many arguments you get against you, youre such a genius that you have this book of rules to cover it all. I rest my case.
No need for the hostility.

BTW, I agree with GG that even fish may find a fold with a draw and a paired board if we shove the turn. Some may not. I don't think you are very wrong for advocating a shove, but I think it allows too many non-drooling opponents to make the correct fold.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:16 PM   #56
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by buzz12586 View Post
So instead of just playing balanced you want to play a guessing game where you have to decide if other players at the table were paying attention and then do the old "he knows that I know that he knows that I know" bs?
im not guessing. im paying attention to who is paying attention. by betting $100 with the nuts on this turn and then all-in on the turn against better players you actually are playing balanced. balance means you don't always do the same thing in the same situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
Results:

Hero shoved. Villain folded K7dd face up.
but he would have called a suck bet for sure. $100 is the right amount. thats why you dont want to shove here and instead give him the right odds to hit his draw. if he rivers a K or a flush he might be inclined to pay off and if not he may even try to bluff for his last 160.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
Really? Didnt villain call off like 150$ on the flop?

Even though i get your point, i think this is classic resultoriented thinking wich 2+2 LLSNL is well known for.
not results oriented the right answer was bet $100 on turn. he called a raise of 95 on the flop not a bet of $150, big difference. make the turn bet $100 and he for sure calling off.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:24 PM   #57
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
We're approaching TTHRIC, but what sticks out most (and why I keep spewing posts) is how easy it apparently is for decent players to misplay hands that have 95%+ equity. Like, against a fish/spot like this V, many of us might occasionally get to the turn the same way with, say, AQcs and the turn would just always be a shove w 70-80% equity for value against a near identical range, often expecting to get called, and never betting less.

Countless times, our strongest but still vulnerable hands are stacking off to a fish 76dd, and when they get there, we gladly pay them off knowing full well we got the best of it. Now suddenly, when we have near airtight equity, we want to take the top off and let them realize that equity for less? Not me. If I wanted to see rivers I would've flattted flop.
our equity is 95% against AQ,KQ,AA,KK. against all other hands its 100%. are you advocating going all-in to protect our 95% equity so we dont get sucked out on?? thats foolish. with just AQ or KQ this turn is an all-in because if we bet $100 then we are giving our opponent the right implied odds to hit his draw. we want to gii with trips on this turn. but with a boat we want to give our opponents the right implied odds to river a straight or flush.

if you're advocating we go all-in with QJ because thats how we would play KQ, AQ and you think we need to balance here, then you are simply wrong. remember poker is a game of people and we are up against a level 1 thinker. no need to balance in this spot. we can make a balanced play later against the other players at the table.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:32 PM   #58
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

The turn shovers are concerned about protecting our almost unbeatable equity; they are mostly concerned about leaving huge value on the table from hands that won't fold the turn (but will fold the river when they whiff / gets even more retarded). It's a valid concern.

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Old 05-11-2017, 05:49 PM   #59
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
The turn shovers are'nt concerned about protecting our almost unbeatable equity; they are mostly concerned about leaving huge value on the table from hands that won't fold the turn (but will fold the river when they whiff / gets even more retarded). It's a valid concern.

GcluelessNLnoobG
FYP

what hands would call a turn bet of $100 and fold river?? K7dd when it whiffs. those type of hands would just fold on the turn for a $260 all-in. so its pretty dumb thinking a shove on this turn is correct. hands that would call an all-in on the turn are also likely to call it off by the river after calling a suck bet on the turn. is AA going to call 100 turn and fold river? doubt it. but AA might find a fold for an all-in on the turn. $100 bet on turn is correct and it's not even close.

here is an example of when shoving the turn with the nut full house is correct

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...p-2-a-1644068/

Last edited by Rich Checkmaker; 05-11-2017 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:09 PM   #60
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by pocketzeroes View Post
Make a stupid bet. Like $100. It's really transparent, but so are all of your options. Checking looks weird, shoves don't get called by draws, etc.... So I'd bet like $100 simply because most people really hate to fold to a turn bet that's smaller than what they called on the flop.
It really isn't to fish though. They'll think you're scared of the Q or are weak, or not think at all and just be happy they get to chase their flush for cheap. Obviously against thinking players it's a different story.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:30 PM   #61
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post
our equity is 95% against AQ,KQ,AA,KK. against all other hands its 100%. are you advocating going all-in to protect our 95% equity so we dont get sucked out on?? thats foolish. with just AQ or KQ this turn is an all-in because if we bet $100 then we are giving our opponent the right implied odds to hit his draw. we want to gii with trips on this turn. but with a boat we want to give our opponents the right implied odds to river a straight or flush.

if you're advocating we go all-in with QJ because thats how we would play KQ, AQ and you think we need to balance here, then you are simply wrong. remember poker is a game of people and we are up against a level 1 thinker. no need to balance in this spot. we can make a balanced play later against the other players at the table.
Face palm.

I am shoving turn because it makes the most money for my hand, my range, my line with the limited information I have.

You aren't shoving turn because you think it makes more than shoving on this street based on information you do not have.

You likely don't know what I'm talking about.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:05 PM   #62
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Face palm.

I am shoving turn because it makes the most money for my hand, my range, my line with the limited information I have.

You aren't shoving turn because you think it makes more than shoving on this street based on information you do not have.

You likely don't know what I'm talking about.
you dont know what you are talking about lol.

shoving turn with top full house here is really bad. you force your opponent off of hands like K7dd that are drawing dead. does your whole range show up in this spot or just the specific hand that you have? why are you talking about playing ranges against a level 1 opponent?

you dont get it. you're not supposed to be playing your entire range the same way every time. you will have plenty of strong hands that you can shove this turn with so that your shoving range is a balance between semi-bluffs and value hands. you don't need to add QJ to beef up your value range. you can and should be making an exploitive play here with QJ to extract the max from drawing hands against an opponent who is only thinking about what he has.

shoving turn does not make the most money for your hand though. betting $100 does. i dont see how you can argue otherwise. do you think K7dd is folding for $100 too? not likely. by jamming here we lose $100 plus $160 when villain rivers a flush or gets stupid and punts brick rivers. please construct a calling range for the opponent here for an all-in and prove me right(or wrong).
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:02 AM   #63
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

Interesting how some people here can't understand the difference between a range optimal play and a hand specific optimal play...

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Old 05-12-2017, 02:05 PM   #64
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post
you dont know what you are talking about lol.

shoving turn with top full house here is really bad. you force your opponent off of hands like K7dd that are drawing dead.does your whole range show up in this spot or just the specific hand that you have? why are you talking about playing ranges against a level 1 opponent?

Bad Assumption

you dont get it. you're not supposed to be playing your entire range the same way every time. you will have plenty of strong hands that you can shove this turn with so that your shoving range is a balance between semi-bluffs and value hands. you don't need to add QJ to beef up your value range. you can and should be making an exploitive play here with QJ to extract the max from drawing hands against an opponent who is only thinking about what he has.

Yes you are once you raise flop for the sizing you did at this depth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post
shoving turn does not make the most money for your hand though. betting $100 does. i dont see how you can argue otherwise. do you think K7dd is folding for $100 too? not likely. by jamming here we lose $100 plus $160 when villain rivers a flush or gets stupid and punts brick rivers. please construct a calling range for the opponent here for an all-in and prove me right(or wrong).
Making an exploitative play without real information is very expensive. You just have no idea what his range thresholds are, nor any reason to believe deviating from shoving is making you the most money from his range.
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:27 PM   #65
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Making an exploitative play without real information is very expensive. You just have no idea what his range thresholds are, nor any reason to believe deviating from shoving is making you the most money from his range.
what "real information" are you talking about? what do you mean by "range threshholds"? i have a very good reason(experience and logic) to believe that shoving is not making the most money from his range. you force him off his drawing hands and hands that would call a shove on this turn are very unlikely to call a suck bet on the turn and then fold river. in fact he's more likely to call the suck bet on the turn and the jam on the river than a jam on the turn. keep in mind OP described villain as a bad level 1 opponent. are you not taking into account the opponent or are you just thinking about how to play the hand regardless of who you are up against????

you really think you should be shoving this turn with 100% of your range 100% of the time??? you need to rethink how you are approaching the game. if you had a hand like ATdd taking the free card on the turn is a good idea. first of all you block villain from having draws to the nutflush as well as block some of his straight draws and you dont block any Qs or Js.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
Results:

Hero shoved. Villain folded K7dd face up.
how exactly is it a bad assumption that jamming turn forces our opponent off K7dd? even a bad opponent like this one knows not to call 3/4 PSB all-in drawing to a flush on the turn.

you're just very clearly wrong about your approach to this hand and I encourage you to explore and think about different approaches. dont be rigid in your mindset, we are all fallible.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:35 PM   #66
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

im still waiting for an answer. holding my breath.
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:02 AM   #67
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

I agree with betting around $100 - $125 on the turn and the rest on he river because you're giving draws very good odds so it's hard for draws to fold. On the he other hand, if he has Qx, 44, or KK+ then he will probably call your river bet anyway. I don't like checking back just because you're giving draws a free card and he might not pay you off at all if he misses.

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Old 05-19-2017, 02:41 AM   #68
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
Anyone who wants to shove this turn against 1/3 villains is just SO bad.
Okay, sick crusher. Whatever you say. I'll bet you're beating lol 1/3 for 20BB+/100.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:42 AM   #69
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by buzz12586 View Post
So instead of just playing balanced you want to play a guessing game where you have to decide if other players at the table were paying attention and then do the old "he knows that I know that he knows that I know" bs?


He loves guessing games.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:48 AM   #70
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post
im not guessing. im paying attention to who is paying attention. by betting $100 with the nuts on this turn and then all-in on the turn against better players you actually are playing balanced. balance means you don't always do the same thing in the same situation.



but he would have called a suck bet for sure. $100 is the right amount. thats why you dont want to shove here and instead give him the right odds to hit his draw. if he rivers a K or a flush he might be inclined to pay off and if not he may even try to bluff for his last 160.
Huh????? That has NOTHING to do with balance. You're criticizing posters' whose lines happen to be balanced & the most +EV, but you have absolutely no idea what balance even is in poker.

And classic results oriented 2+2 LLSNL. Let's say in the hand he had KK, and the river brings in a flush, an A, or a J (although a J shouldn't be a scare card). That's half the deck. We jam, he sigh folds. I'll bet people here would start saying, "Hmmmmm, well maybe we should have jammed turn."

Last edited by Minatorr; 05-19-2017 at 02:55 AM.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:56 AM   #71
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post

you dont know what you are talking about lol.

shoving turn with top full house here is really bad.

you're just very clearly wrong about your approach to this hand and I encourage you to explore and think about different approaches. dont be rigid in your mindset, we are all fallible.

im still waiting for an answer. holding my breath.
Yeah, sure. Says the guy who thinks balance is "you don't always do the same thing in the same situation." LMAO. I don't think Amana needs to explain himself any further. Obviously, you're not going to get it. Keep holding your breath.

Last edited by Minatorr; 05-19-2017 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:02 AM   #72
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by dmccoy87 View Post
I check behind.
this.

as your V is described, he would have just ripped it in on the flop if he had an over pair, or Qx.

He is on some kind of draw, most likely hearts, and we are going to lose all of his bluffs and value hands on the river if we rip it.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:42 AM   #73
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post
you really think you should be shoving this turn with 100% of your range 100% of the time???
Sick bump.

Spoiler:
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:34 PM   #74
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

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Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post
im still waiting for an answer. holding my breath.
seriously? lol. pettiest post of the year.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:34 PM   #75
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Re: 1/3 NL: turn the stones. Shove turn or wait until river?

another thread turned dumpster fire via dick waving contest.

sigh.

this is not good for LLSNL. i think mods should start giving out infractions and temp bans to remove this **** from this subforum.
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