It's a very wet flop. A bigger bet sizing is fine. We shouldn't be betting here without a decent hand anyway.

If villain was exploiting a particular tendency of hero's deliberately, then of course preflop is fine. But in general if you're not going to 3bet 4 handed on your button, you're doing it wrong. And if you're going to 3bet only weaker hands and flat KK and other premiums, you're doing it even worse.

This is rather results oriented anyway. Was hero going to fold JJ to a 3bet? Absolutely not. Was he going to fold on a ten high flop? Absolutely not. Villain probably stacks hero by 3betting anyway.

It's 4 handed overpair vs overpair. The money is usually going in, especially given hero's enthusiasm in this hand.

Sol I'm curious in what situations you flat premiums outside of expecting a squeeze (the only reason I ever flat them)

Flop cbet sizing is fine/good

Well it shouldn't be at this high SPR.

Frankly, wj94s first post covers things quite accurately. To expand, another reason the flop bet IS too big is that this particular hand becomes questionable to defend when facing a now larger raise from a should-be stronger range. If SPR were 2-3, then JJ obv does better 4 handed. In this spot, JJ is a good bet-f candidate with KK+, NFDs and maybe even some Tx (more OESDs available, blocking top set/T9, etc) making up the bottom of a continuing range.

I flat them when there's no dead money in the pot and regs fold to 3b way too often, especially at 2/5. Rather play a pot with the big pair than 3b and win $20.

Maybe, people do it all the time. Or they call and if they don't flop a set they might call one bet and give up.

Stacking off with JJ here in a 3b pot would seem to be even worse this deep, but ok.

Just because it's short-handed doesn't mean the other players magically start adjusting their ranges and going nuts with top pair or worse for 200bb.

It's rather results oriented to say "see hero wouldn't have folded" when he had JJ in this one particular hand. If you think your villain is folding OOP to a 3! >70% of the time than you can 3! with ATC and show a profit.

So rather than waste KK here we can exploit hero by turning a hand that would be a fold (like Axs or Kxs) into a bluff and 3! and get folds most of the time while still having position and ~30% equity when called.

Then we can flat KK and play a deceptively strong hand in position with a larger than comfortable SPR for villain while our range is completely disguised. We have deep stacks, a position advantage, a range advantage, a skill advantage and an information advantage as our flat tells him nothing about our range while his 6x open tells us quite a bit about his. That sounds like a jackpot in my book.

We can take exploitative lines because we don't need to worry about being balanced until a villain has shown capable of adjusting. Hero just stacked off with the 4th nut overpair in an 11x SPR pot which is a huge mistake.

Being passive is usually a description of the full range of someone's play. My guess is that doesn't consitute his play. However, you really need a much better villain descrip. What have you seen from him in regards to turn/river/VPIP action? How often does he call behind, 3ball, raise pre, etc. What've we seen postflop. His call pre got you to stack off most of 200BB post with JJ when you likely could otherwise have thought of folding more.

For a loose tard (I am usually a super-loose tard in a 1-3 game), who is also a winner, you disguise your range by calling behind with hands like QQ-AA and letting people make big mistakes with 1 pair vs your wide and undefined range that is assumed to be bluffy (becauuse your range probably is bluffy!).

Without reads you its a fold to the flop raise. Mainly because the way you played the hand screams incredible strength and it does not look like you can fold.
Things that make it a call or ship: you've been getting regularly run over and he's been able to beat people over the face with repeated raises to gain fold equity. He is shown to massively overvalue his hands (e.g. if he thinks a pair of 9s or Ts is the nuts). His VPIP is out of order pre and he regularly out-of-order post (not sure you are aware enough to decipher this, no offense, its something you prob need to work on).

You should wait longer before posting results in a thread. Give people a time to debate.

I only flat premiums in these spots with specific reasons, such as squeezing, their tightness vs 3betting, and the way they play post.

Exception is QQ in the sb bvb. That's a 100% limp hand, but only because AI tells me so, and only if I want to play a big limp range bvb which I usually don't because it's slow and boring, but it's my default in a reggy game waiting for fish to join (only if it's non rake).

I'd say I 3bet KK like a pretty huge % of the time, 95%+, but that doesn't mean there can't be spots where flatting's EV is similar enough. Having something to balance is not so bad. I think if you 3bet KK everytime, you probably should have a sensibly high 3bet bluff frequency too, unless villains really don't adjust. I think most players don't 3bet enough, so I feel that many of those players can reasonably flat KK pre more so it's not too value heavy.

The back part is true. Corollary is people give too much respect to 3 bets and it lets you tell a good story. So 3betting more often as a multiway squeeze paired w smoothing premiums isn't so crazy



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As always i appreciate all the input.
This was a live game in a casino, no one EVER opens 3x or 4x ever. The minimum anyone opened any pot in this game was 15. But the average was 20. I opened all my hands between 17-20. I open a fair amount of hands from late position standard. And yes when i open and miss board i usually c-bet roughly that sized bet every time. it is EXTREMELY unlikely that the villain had me pegged for opening a premium hand based on my sizing or any other tell. The small blind is a LAG who is probably one of the best players in this local casino. He has a rep for squeezing and bluffing like crazy so maybe that why he flatted. Obviously i ****ed up this hand bad. And I'm clearly not one of those people who only posts hands where they made the best play. I posted a hand where i ****ed up and lost 600 dollars in one second. I got nothing to hide. The more i read the thoughts and comments the more i realize how badly i ****ed up. I don't know its almost like in those two minutes of tanking i just like froze up and before i knew it verbal vomit all in just secreted out of the hole in my face and the dealer pushed my stack far far way.

Do you have any suggested reading on this? I only limp or fold in the SB with any hand if it folds to me vs regs but I've never found any good reading material on how to approach that spot. Would be interested in reading anything you have to say on it or any links you may have (no idea what AI you're talking about for limping QQ).