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Old 05-08-2013, 03:25 AM   #1
TML4567
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$1/3 NL - river decision

Hero: $700 - Upper 20's. Been opening my game a bit more lately since we are now 7-handed. Earlier got caught bluffing on Q45Q2 board with 67 against KQ
Villain: $800 - Low 30's. Tight calling range pre-flop, doesn't like overplaying post flop.


Preflop: Hero opens to $12 on button with T7. Villain calls in SB, BB calls

Flop: ($36) A72
check, check, hero bets $30, Villain quickly calls, BB folds

Turn: ($96) T
Villain checks. Hero bets $60. Villain quickly calls.

Turn: ($216) K

Villain checks. Hero ???

Basically my question is do you ever check this back against villain's description? If not, what bet sizing do you like to extract value out of his most likely range of Ax.

Thanks,
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:32 AM   #2
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

eh in a nutshell I'm not too fond of the preflop raise although I can imagine some game dynamics that make it okay

otf why are you betting so much, ott why are you betting so little, otr b/f like 150 as played
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:40 AM   #3
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

Don't see anything wrong up to this point. Sizing looks ok.

I'd be a bit nervous that a relatively tight player seems to be going nowhere. I think Ax is a bit wide of a range after the turn. Is he tight enough post flop that we can take A3, A4, A5, and A6 out? If so, that means we're only beating A8, A9, AJ, and AQ. And since 22+ should be in his pf range, I think I'm leaning towards checking it back. I'll probably get criticized for leaving value on the table here but ...
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:42 AM   #4
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

pretty sure you can take sets out of his range after he checks a third time

a lot of people like to check two streets and then donk river because what if you check but it's pretty unusual to see someone take a cc cc cr line

especially since he should only have 4 combos of sets here
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:46 AM   #5
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

yeah, I'm betting less on the flop - probably 22-24. Turn bet is fine as played.

We have to think about the range of hands that called pre and have got to this point which will still call a bet.

He plays a tight range pre
There are no draws on the A high flop,
There are no two pair combos that we're folding out and if he somehow got here without raising 22 or 77 we'll know about it with a check raise or we'll lose at showdown.
So we're basically hoping to get value out of Ax hands - if he's tight pre as you say, it's likely AQ or AJ

Your bet size should be determined by your view of villain's threshold for calling pre and then 3 streets post with one pair and also your view of your image in his eyes. If you think he thinks you're full of ****, then go big but if he is mainly just playing his cards (and this is probably most likely), I'd bet less than half the pot - maybe 95, because I don't think a careful villain will call much more here with one pair
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:54 AM   #6
TML4567
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

I normally bet about 18-24 on these type of flops, but my thinking was to bet an amount against these type of players that will only get called by an Ace so I can play straight-forward in the hand after the flop.

When I do my standard 18-24 type bet on these flops, I tend to get called by 88-TT all the time (villain made a similar call earlier in the session). Open to feedback on this, but just thought since I have a pair and position, a larger flop bet would allow me to define their hand right away and give me two free cards to hit my two pair or trips if I get called on this flop.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:28 AM   #7
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

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Originally Posted by TML4567 View Post
When I do my standard 18-24 type bet on these flops, I tend to get called by 88-TT all the time (villain made a similar call earlier in the session).
this is actually better since all of those are folding to another barrel (right? And if they're not, don't bet flop at all... or raise t7 pre for that matter)

assuming you're including all middle pair in similar situations in that range since exactly 88-tt is far too narrow to worry about
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:10 AM   #8
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Grunch;
Betting like 23 otf
45 ott
Then around 70 otr.
I don't expect him to call three streets with a weak ace to three big bets, which is what he has here a lot of the time.
Obv we're bet folding. I like to bet on the smaller side all three streets because I think that way we get three streets from hands that we really shouldn't get it from.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:24 AM   #9
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

We definitely vbetting this river otherwise our river betting range is too polar. At times, we'd be vcutting ourselves but a $85-$110 bet here would be fine. If you get snapped, oh well. If he's cringing, pray he pays you off.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:33 AM   #10
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

Agree with other replies that flop bet should probably be smaller, turn sizing looks fine.

If Villain is competent his calling range pre should be wider than usual considering hero opened from the btn. It's gonna be hard for me to not value bet this river vs someone who checked every street, probably 1/2 pot or so.
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:18 PM   #11
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

Is $12 your normal open? It's not at my table, so I'd just do my normal open to like $15+. Better chance at winning the blinds outright (which is fine with this hand), more money to be won in cbet case, and more chance of getting this HU instead of 3way.

I'd probably also bet the flop, but wouldn't bet so much; the board is bone dry, I'd just go 1/2 PSB. If this were HU, I might check behind against an aggro/bluffy guy in order to get to showdown cheaply. But against two players, especially if they straightforward, we probably have the best hand but it is vulnerable, so I'd bet to protect our equity in the pot. If called, I'm planning on taking my free card and making a river decision.

Nice turn. Now I'm simply betting for value. Stacks are also large so we're nowhere near pot commitment and can probably easily bet/fold the last two streets.

I probably go a little over 1/2 PSB here on the river, say $125 or something. AQ/AJ plus non-believing Ax hands are clearly oue target (ETA: Actually, with us opening on the Button, a thinking player might look us up quite a lot lighter, if he thinks we're barrelling air against tighty him). I think we can safely fold to a check/raise (heck, AT might not even check/raise us).

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:27 PM   #12
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

grunching:

Why so much OTF? There's no draws to price out. You're basically trying to get AJ to fold or something like that. Seems awfully thin.

Then you spike the miracle turn and...slow down your betting? If anything, flop should have been 60% of pot and turn should have been bigger.

River seems like a standard bet for value of a size for about half the pot, his range is a lot of Ax I would think.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:00 PM   #13
TML4567
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Thanks for the responses.

I fired $100 on river and got tank called by AT (he was talking out loud that I may have caught AK).

Basically given what I know now about him tank calling with two pair in that spot I would check back this river,
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:23 PM   #14
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by TML4567 View Post
Basically given what I know now about him tank calling with two pair in that spot I would check back this river,
I think you're being results oriented. Pretty sure he tank/calls AQ/AJ, plus maybe any Ax. Plus he might sometimes (albeit rarely) talk himself into calling down with any pair due to our Button open.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:35 PM   #15
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

I agree OP fired a bit heavy on the flop. If you bet too light on the flop tho, I see hands like 99-JJ (assuming KK & QQ would have repopped pre) check raising you on the flop if you come out with a $15 continuation.

As played, turn I go $80 and prob like $120 on the river.

If AT was a tank call, I wonder what he does with AJ. A9 and A8 seem to be clear folds for this player.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:47 PM   #16
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I wouldn't mind a check back here. We don't have much info on V... Is he capable of check raising in this spot?? If so I check back bc if you get raised here you pretty much have to fold.

His hand almost 100% has an A here and 2 pair is def possible.

Idk I think a check back is fine
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:00 PM   #17
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by TML4567 View Post
Thanks for the responses.

I fired $100 on river and got tank called by AT (he was talking out loud that I may have caught AK).

Basically given what I know now about him tank calling with two pair in that spot I would check back this river,
I would start mercilessly bluffing this guy in heads up pots when he doesn't bet, he seems weak.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:08 PM   #18
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

Is anyone considering checking back flop here?
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:27 PM   #19
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Re: $1/3 NL - river decision

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Originally Posted by JPDynasty View Post
Is anyone considering checking back flop here?
I think a flop bet is good for a lot of partial reasons that add up to a reason to bet. Our hand could be good, but it's vulnerable against 2 players and we're simply protecting our equity in the pot; unlike KK which is WA/WB and would be an easy check behind. There's also a slight chance we get a better hand to fold (88/etc.) and at the same time (although I guess a little inconsistent thinking) a worse hand to call (worse 7x, etc.). In a 3way pot, there's less chance of someone bluffing if we check behind and having our hand turned into a bluffcatcher (unlike we could perhaps do HU). If anyone calls, we'll have position and can most likely pot control / take a free card on the turn. Added all up, I think this leans towards a bet.
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