Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-08-2014, 05:10 AM   #1
Steve00007
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,976
1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

Hero has been at the table for a couple of rounds. So far villain is a young white guy (maybe about 30) who has been folding a lot PF, and I haven't seen him get involved in any big hands (he also missed 3-4 hands earlier so I saw him for less than 2 rounds). In the previous hand, hero raised PF, bet the flop, bet when it was heads-up on the turn, and folded to a donk on the river when a scare card came. That was with a different villain, but the donk was smallish (about $35) in a pot over $100 and I mention it because if villain was paying attention it's going to be fresh on his mind, and maybe villain will think that I can be bluffed after that hand.

Stack sizes:
Hero: $250
Villain: $240

Preflop: One player limps in, it's folded to hero in the CO who raises to $15 with KK, villain 3-bets to $45, it's folded around to hero who calls.

Flop is AA8 (93$)

Hero checks, villain checks

Turn is 3(93$)

Hero bets 50, villain raises to 100, hero tanks and then shoves


I'll have to admit that this one had me confused when I was playing it. I'm not comfortable with almost anything I did in this hand.
Steve00007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 05:51 AM   #2
Buster65
The Situation
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Livin' on Bluff Rd.
Posts: 2,240
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

Call the turn raise, then open shove river.
Buster65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 06:03 AM   #3
Duke0424
self-banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Desert
Posts: 13,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster65 View Post
Call the turn raise, then open shove river.
Why? Just shove the turn if you're going to do this. You get value from QQ/JJ either way but prevent a scare card from falling and losing your action

I'd 4bet Pre, though
Duke0424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 06:06 AM   #4
Flatbarrel
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 150
80bb shove pre no? Ap i bet turn for 30. Or just c/f. Also folding to the raise. He has so many As in his range. So little of anything else. ( which btw you are folding out by shoving).
Flatbarrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 07:25 AM   #5
Buster65
The Situation
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Livin' on Bluff Rd.
Posts: 2,240
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke0424 View Post
Why? Just shove the turn if you're going to do this.
Size of pot versus stacks OTR if we call the turn raise. I think we get crying calls from hands that might fold to reraise shove OTT.

Makes no logical sense, I know, but OTR players convince themselves, "well, I got this far...."
Buster65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 08:05 AM   #6
johnny_on_the_spot
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnny_on_the_spot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: S-Mart
Posts: 10,761
Bet/fold on turn.

Admiral Ackbar theorem: IT'S A TRAP!

You're repping a lot of As and he min raised you. Me thinks he feels his A is bigger than ours
johnny_on_the_spot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 08:21 AM   #7
sauhund
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: osiasgriffin
Posts: 5,839
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

just c/c or even c/f turn, depending on sizing. but b/shove is very easily the worst possible line.
most likely 4bet pre, esp oop.
sauhund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 08:41 AM   #8
MackCorl
grinder
 
MackCorl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: MI
Posts: 456
4betting pre makes this hand a lot easier for us to play.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using 2+2 Forums
MackCorl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 09:57 AM   #9
farrique
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 146
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

I probably 4 bet jam here with 80 bb. I don't mind running Aces.
farrique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 11:32 AM   #10
dgiharris
All Hail His Modness
 
dgiharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CA and Vegas
Posts: 12,294
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

I really hate the shove on this turn. Ax is never folding and all we do is fold out the QQ/JJ that we already beat.

I'd much rather we took a c/c line on turn and river rather than bet/shove on turn

Also, 4-betting pre is more or less standard here.

Only way I don't 4-bet pre is if V is enough of a thinking player to range us for KK/AA and fold QQ/JJ (which is rare). Another reason I would flat the 3-bet pre is if V was very aggro and would stack off on flop if no A or K hit.
dgiharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 11:49 AM   #11
Willyoman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Willyoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,468
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

4-bet pre.

And I would be in c/decide mode on every street.

I mean, what's the point of betting the turn? To get value from exactly JJ, QQ? It's not a profitable value bet because there are too many aces in V's hand range relative to other worse hands that could possibly give you value, and I'll doubt he pays off a bet with worse almost ever anyway. Maybe just one river bet if it checks to the river.

It's also a drawless board.

The turn bet also isn't a bluff... he's not folding any Ax.

Probably best to check/call one street with the plan to check/fold the next.

However, I don't think it's a terrible mistake just to check/fold. His range is rich with Ax and pocket pairs, and I think pocket pairs check back like always and Ax will value school.

And if it does check all the way to the river, sure, make a small value bet.
Willyoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 12:21 PM   #12
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 33,024
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

I don't hate the flat the preflop. We'll be going to a very small SPR pot and will therefore be fully committed for stacks on non-******ed boards, and even though we'll be OOP we still should be able to get stacks in easily postflop. Flatting does prevent us from blowing out hands that were getting frisky, but then again, a 3bet at LLSNL is typically a fairly big hand, so we shouldn't be *too* concerned about that. The one thing we might be concerned about is having a weaker hand see a terrible flop, such as TT seeing a AQx flop or whatever, in which case it's unlikely we're going to get the money in. I think I would prefer a 4bet for this reason, unless Villain is known as a light 3better.

I still feel committed on this flop. With 2 Aces out plus 2 Kings out, that really limits the number of Ax combos left. So I think there is a decent chance we are still best, so I'm never considering folding, especially keeping in mind that SPR is like ~2 and we only started the hand with 80bbs (we're not exactly deep here). I'm fine with the flop check to continue our history of showing weakness.

I like our 1/2 PSB turn bet as it makes sure to set things up for an easy river shove. I'm never folding due to SPR/stacksize/history-of-showing-weakness/underrepped-out-hand/etc., but I think I just flat the turn. If we shove, I'm not so sure we get called by anything we beat. However, if we just flat, it continues to show weakness, and then we have a shrug-whatever-I-only-have-a-little-bit-left-so-I-might-as-well-stick-it-in river shove.

ETA: I think I'm cooler than most with the bet on the turn. I think we want to make sure we play for stacks here, and that will be hard to do with TT checking behind on the turn again. This guy has also seen us fold to a river scare card, and obviously has some aggro in him due to the preflop 3bet, and we've way underrepped our hand, so I think he can easily try to turn his hand into a bluff on the turn. Note that if there was only 1 Ace on the flop and we had like QQ or something (thus really bringing in a lot more combos that beat us into play), I'd probably be more cool with a check-it-down attempt.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 04-08-2014 at 12:29 PM.
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 12:43 PM   #13
dgiharris
All Hail His Modness
 
dgiharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CA and Vegas
Posts: 12,294
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I don't hate the flat the preflop. We'll be going to a very small SPR pot and will therefore be fully committed for stacks on non-******ed boards, and even though we'll be OOP we still should be able to get stacks in easily postflop. Flatting does prevent us from blowing out hands that were getting frisky, but then again, a 3bet at LLSNL is typically a fairly big hand, so we shouldn't be *too* concerned about that. The one thing we might be concerned about is having a weaker hand see a terrible flop, such as TT seeing a AQx flop or whatever, in which case it's unlikely we're going to get the money in. I think I would prefer a 4bet for this reason, unless Villain is known as a light 3better.

I still feel committed on this flop. With 2 Aces out plus 2 Kings out, that really limits the number of Ax combos left. So I think there is a decent chance we are still best, so I'm never considering folding, especially keeping in mind that SPR is like ~2 and we only started the hand with 80bbs (we're not exactly deep here). I'm fine with the flop check to continue our history of showing weakness.

I like our 1/2 PSB turn bet as it makes sure to set things up for an easy river shove. I'm never folding due to SPR/stacksize/history-of-showing-weakness/underrepped-out-hand/etc., but I think I just flat the turn. If we shove, I'm not so sure we get called by anything we beat. However, if we just flat, it continues to show weakness, and then we have a shrug-whatever-I-only-have-a-little-bit-left-so-I-might-as-well-stick-it-in river shove.

ETA: I think I'm cooler than most with the bet on the turn. I think we want to make sure we play for stacks here, and that will be hard to do with TT checking behind on the turn again. This guy has also seen us fold to a river scare card, and obviously has some aggro in him due to the preflop 3bet, and we've way underrepped our hand, so I think he can easily try to turn his hand into a bluff on the turn. Note that if there was only 1 Ace on the flop and we had like QQ or something (thus really bringing in a lot more combos that beat us into play), I'd probably be more cool with a check-it-down attempt.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Who are you and how did you hack GG's account???

dgiharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 12:52 PM   #14
Willyoman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Willyoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,468
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

There is a difference between feeling committed and making the bets yourself.

Also 2 aces on the board limits Ax combos by 50%.

So each Ax combo went from 16 to 8 combos (except AK, which is 4 combos since we block further).

Pairs are still only 6 combos each. And way less likely to put chips in the middle post-flop than Ax.
Willyoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 12:54 PM   #15
sauhund
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: osiasgriffin
Posts: 5,839
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I don't hate the flat the preflop. We'll be going to a very small SPR pot and will therefore be fully committed for stacks on non-******ed boards, and even though we'll be OOP we still should be able to get stacks in easily postflop. Flatting does prevent us from blowing out hands that were getting frisky, but then again, a 3bet at LLSNL is typically a fairly big hand, so we shouldn't be *too* concerned about that. The one thing we might be concerned about is having a weaker hand see a terrible flop, such as TT seeing a AQx flop or whatever, in which case it's unlikely we're going to get the money in. I think I would prefer a 4bet for this reason, unless Villain is known as a light 3better.

I still feel committed on this flop. With 2 Aces out plus 2 Kings out, that really limits the number of Ax combos left. So I think there is a decent chance we are still best, so I'm never considering folding, especially keeping in mind that SPR is like ~2 and we only started the hand with 80bbs (we're not exactly deep here). I'm fine with the flop check to continue our history of showing weakness.

I like our 1/2 PSB turn bet as it makes sure to set things up for an easy river shove. I'm never folding due to SPR/stacksize/history-of-showing-weakness/underrepped-out-hand/etc., but I think I just flat the turn. If we shove, I'm not so sure we get called by anything we beat. However, if we just flat, it continues to show weakness, and then we have a shrug-whatever-I-only-have-a-little-bit-left-so-I-might-as-well-stick-it-in river shove.

ETA: I think I'm cooler than most with the bet on the turn. I think we want to make sure we play for stacks here, and that will be hard to do with TT checking behind on the turn again. This guy has also seen us fold to a river scare card, and obviously has some aggro in him due to the preflop 3bet, and we've way underrepped our hand, so I think he can easily try to turn his hand into a bluff on the turn. Note that if there was only 1 Ace on the flop and we had like QQ or something (thus really bringing in a lot more combos that beat us into play), I'd probably be more cool with a check-it-down attempt.

GcluelessNLnoobG
im quite the opposite here. it would be pretty tough to get me to fold with a normal bet/bet/bet line, but the flop c/behind just sets up sooo many alarm bells imo. i mean, im really not an experienced live player or even holdem player for that matter, but from what ive seen its just sooo common for most villains to do a hellmuth and check back their Ax and bet the rest.
sauhund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 12:56 PM   #16
Willyoman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Willyoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,468
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

^ Sure, and I think that's a great line by villain.

With an SPR of 2 (stacks are shallow relative to pot), I'd say villain's optimal line by far is to check back the flop.
Willyoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 12:59 PM   #17
Donkopilis
newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 45
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

What do people in llshl 3 bet with most the time aa n kk u got the kk, he flops a monster so he checks back. What would his min raising u range be for after checking the flop a or aa that's it have a nice day
Donkopilis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 01:13 PM   #18
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 33,024
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
Who are you and how did you hack GG's account???

But we's got 2 pear, dgi! 2 pear!!

I mean, sure, I agree with everyone else in that an Ax plays the flop like this, but then again, so does KK- a lot of the time. There are 6 AA/AK/KK combos that we are losing too / chopping with. There are 18 QQ/JJ/TT combos we are beating. If you start adding in AQ, that's another 8 combos we are losing too, but now we should probably start adding in some smaller pairs at 6 combos each, etc.

I dunno, I just hate missing value here given SPR/etc./etc. I also might be reading too much into the read on the Villain and our I-have-a-fold-button image.

GforumaggrotardG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 01:29 PM   #19
Sickwin
newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 32
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

You lose

Not trying to get all in with marginal hand at a 1/3 table. Villain is pretty tight from what I understand.

4 bet pre, if bluffing turn bluff a little larger, $50 bet encourages raise. Your line feels weak, and your hand is weak. As played fold. Villain checking back the flop with an A pretty standard, board is very safe.

All you have is a bluff catcher, and we dont want to be calling multi-streets to get there, dont shove this turn, if he does have a bluff and you want to catch it you have to call, then check call the river, rather then allow him to fold the turn. I'm not ever going for value this light.

Most 1/3 players aren't creative enough to play back at you, and until he has proven that he can don't mess with him.

Last edited by Sickwin; 04-08-2014 at 01:40 PM.
Sickwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 01:54 PM   #20
Lapidator
LLSNL Frequent Flyer
 
Lapidator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: lying dog-faced pony soldier
Posts: 13,763
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

Grunchish.

Preflop: Don't mind the flat. But 4b to $100 is a better line IMO. 4b/c or 4b/s depending on opponents sizing.

Flop: Check is good. Probably x/c but will have to take a read.

Turn: As played you now want to go to x/c, x/c mode. I don't think you're getting JJ-QQ to call any bets, but they may continue to bluff at the pot.
Lapidator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 05:38 PM   #21
Steve00007
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,976
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

I figured I played this badly enough that it's embarrassing.

But I'm surprised that people see so much strength in that check on the flop. I read it as weakness. If villain has a hand like KK or QQ, I thought he would fear that I had an ace and would likely check the flop with those hands.

Edit: From villains point of view I also could have had an ace with a weaker kicker than AK, which would be a reason for him to bet (or at least in his mind could be a reason to bet).

Last edited by Steve00007; 04-08-2014 at 05:51 PM.
Steve00007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 05:46 PM   #22
Steve00007
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,976
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

How much would you guys make the 4-bet before the flop?
Steve00007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 05:53 PM   #23
rksnake11
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
Shove on the turn is not good. I would 4 bet this hand to $110-120 and call a 5 bet.

As played I would probably fold on the turn. He is not raising with anything that doesn't beat you. If you hit a K you will probably win the pot but my guess is he has a big A. Sucks but sometimes we have to lay down KKs especially if we misplay them preflop.
rksnake11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 06:09 PM   #24
Sickwin
newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 32
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

I like to make it $110 pre. And the way I do it is announce raise, cut out $45 and put it in for the call. Then lay out another $65. Seems to draw more attention to the $65 and villains are more likely to call with worse. Makes it look more like $65 then $110.

I almost never bet out on the flop when it seems near impossible for my opponent to catch up and we can probably get all the chips in within two streets.

No straight and no flush possible, so probably opponent has pocket pair and maybe 2 outs, but they probably will fire on the turn for a big pot if I check it back and ill get one more street of value often enough to cover the 1 in 50 times I get burned.

Same thing as if you flop a sneaky full house, nobody usually has anything so we need to let them catch up a bit or give them another chance to fire at it.

Put yourself in villains shoes, heck he might even have AA.
Sickwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2014, 08:42 PM   #25
spikeraw22
The Situation
 
spikeraw22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SB is the new BTN
Posts: 8,695
Re: 1/3 NL: Pocket kings face 3-bet, 2 aces come on the flop

Look at all te big boys coming out for this one....

Semi grunch: 4bet pre. Just not deep enough or proper dynamic to flat OOP.

Flop: either way ahead or way behind so checking seems good.
Turn: betting reps an ace. If he's slow playing tht won't work and if he doesn't have it you'll be lucky to get one bet from him so just save it. This is not a bad board to give another card. I'd be check eval on turn. Likely calling a bet. Hardly anything can change te board on the river so id bet/fold river assuming there was enough room to do so.

My main question is what is he 3 betting with preflop? AK AA are all discounted. It's a rare 1/3 player who 3 bets AQ and worse (besides me. I do it all the time).

Not deep enough= makes for an awkward SPR. Can flat in order to shove flop vs right opponent.

Last edited by spikeraw22; 04-08-2014 at 08:50 PM.
spikeraw22 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive