Hero has been at the table for a couple of rounds. So far villain is a young white guy (maybe about 30) who has been folding a lot PF, and I haven't seen him get involved in any big hands (he also missed 3-4 hands earlier so I saw him for less than 2 rounds). In the previous hand, hero raised PF, bet the flop, bet when it was heads-up on the turn, and folded to a donk on the river when a scare card came. That was with a different villain, but the donk was smallish (about $35) in a pot over $100 and I mention it because if villain was paying attention it's going to be fresh on his mind, and maybe villain will think that I can be bluffed after that hand.

Stack sizes:
Hero: $250
Villain: $240

Preflop: One player limps in, it's folded to hero in the CO who raises to $15 with KK, villain 3-bets to $45, it's folded around to hero who calls.

Flop is AA8 (93$)

Hero checks, villain checks

Turn is 3(93$)

Hero bets 50, villain raises to 100, hero tanks and then shoves


I'll have to admit that this one had me confused when I was playing it. I'm not comfortable with almost anything I did in this hand.

Call the turn raise, then open shove river.

Why? Just shove the turn if you're going to do this. You get value from QQ/JJ either way but prevent a scare card from falling and losing your action

I'd 4bet Pre, though

80bb shove pre no? Ap i bet turn for 30. Or just c/f. Also folding to the raise. He has so many As in his range. So little of anything else. ( which btw you are folding out by shoving).

Size of pot versus stacks OTR if we call the turn raise. I think we get crying calls from hands that might fold to reraise shove OTT.

Makes no logical sense, I know, but OTR players convince themselves, "well, I got this far...."

Bet/fold on turn.

Admiral Ackbar theorem: IT'S A TRAP!

You're repping a lot of As and he min raised you. Me thinks he feels his A is bigger than ours

just c/c or even c/f turn, depending on sizing. but b/shove is very easily the worst possible line.
most likely 4bet pre, esp oop.

4betting pre makes this hand a lot easier for us to play.

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I probably 4 bet jam here with 80 bb. I don't mind running Aces.

I really hate the shove on this turn. Ax is never folding and all we do is fold out the QQ/JJ that we already beat.

I'd much rather we took a c/c line on turn and river rather than bet/shove on turn

Also, 4-betting pre is more or less standard here.

Only way I don't 4-bet pre is if V is enough of a thinking player to range us for KK/AA and fold QQ/JJ (which is rare). Another reason I would flat the 3-bet pre is if V was very aggro and would stack off on flop if no A or K hit.

4-bet pre.

And I would be in c/decide mode on every street.

I mean, what's the point of betting the turn? To get value from exactly JJ, QQ? It's not a profitable value bet because there are too many aces in V's hand range relative to other worse hands that could possibly give you value, and I'll doubt he pays off a bet with worse almost ever anyway. Maybe just one river bet if it checks to the river.

It's also a drawless board.

The turn bet also isn't a bluff... he's not folding any Ax.

Probably best to check/call one street with the plan to check/fold the next.

However, I don't think it's a terrible mistake just to check/fold. His range is rich with Ax and pocket pairs, and I think pocket pairs check back like always and Ax will value school.

And if it does check all the way to the river, sure, make a small value bet.

I don't hate the flat the preflop. We'll be going to a very small SPR pot and will therefore be fully committed for stacks on non-******ed boards, and even though we'll be OOP we still should be able to get stacks in easily postflop. Flatting does prevent us from blowing out hands that were getting frisky, but then again, a 3bet at LLSNL is typically a fairly big hand, so we shouldn't be *too* concerned about that. The one thing we might be concerned about is having a weaker hand see a terrible flop, such as TT seeing a AQx flop or whatever, in which case it's unlikely we're going to get the money in. I think I would prefer a 4bet for this reason, unless Villain is known as a light 3better.

I still feel committed on this flop. With 2 Aces out plus 2 Kings out, that really limits the number of Ax combos left. So I think there is a decent chance we are still best, so I'm never considering folding, especially keeping in mind that SPR is like ~2 and we only started the hand with 80bbs (we're not exactly deep here). I'm fine with the flop check to continue our history of showing weakness.

I like our 1/2 PSB turn bet as it makes sure to set things up for an easy river shove. I'm never folding due to SPR/stacksize/history-of-showing-weakness/underrepped-out-hand/etc., but I think I just flat the turn. If we shove, I'm not so sure we get called by anything we beat. However, if we just flat, it continues to show weakness, and then we have a shrug-whatever-I-only-have-a-little-bit-left-so-I-might-as-well-stick-it-in river shove.

ETA: I think I'm cooler than most with the bet on the turn. I think we want to make sure we play for stacks here, and that will be hard to do with TT checking behind on the turn again. This guy has also seen us fold to a river scare card, and obviously has some aggro in him due to the preflop 3bet, and we've way underrepped our hand, so I think he can easily try to turn his hand into a bluff on the turn. Note that if there was only 1 Ace on the flop and we had like QQ or something (thus really bringing in a lot more combos that beat us into play), I'd probably be more cool with a check-it-down attempt.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Who are you and how did you hack GG's account???

There is a difference between feeling committed and making the bets yourself.

Also 2 aces on the board limits Ax combos by 50%.

So each Ax combo went from 16 to 8 combos (except AK, which is 4 combos since we block further).

Pairs are still only 6 combos each. And way less likely to put chips in the middle post-flop than Ax.

i´m quite the opposite here. it would be pretty tough to get me to fold with a normal bet/bet/bet line, but the flop c/behind just sets up sooo many alarm bells imo. i mean, i´m really not an experienced live player or even holdem player for that matter, but from what i´ve seen it´s just sooo common for most villains to do a hellmuth and check back their Ax and bet the rest.

^ Sure, and I think that's a great line by villain.

With an SPR of 2 (stacks are shallow relative to pot), I'd say villain's optimal line by far is to check back the flop.

What do people in llshl 3 bet with most the time aa n kk u got the kk, he flops a monster so he checks back. What would his min raising u range be for after checking the flop a or aa that's it have a nice day

But we's got 2 pear, dgi! 2 pear!!

I mean, sure, I agree with everyone else in that an Ax plays the flop like this, but then again, so does KK- a lot of the time. There are 6 AA/AK/KK combos that we are losing too / chopping with. There are 18 QQ/JJ/TT combos we are beating. If you start adding in AQ, that's another 8 combos we are losing too, but now we should probably start adding in some smaller pairs at 6 combos each, etc.

I dunno, I just hate missing value here given SPR/etc./etc. I also might be reading too much into the read on the Villain and our I-have-a-fold-button image.

GforumaggrotardG

You lose

Not trying to get all in with marginal hand at a 1/3 table. Villain is pretty tight from what I understand.

4 bet pre, if bluffing turn bluff a little larger, $50 bet encourages raise. Your line feels weak, and your hand is weak. As played fold. Villain checking back the flop with an A pretty standard, board is very safe.

All you have is a bluff catcher, and we dont want to be calling multi-streets to get there, dont shove this turn, if he does have a bluff and you want to catch it you have to call, then check call the river, rather then allow him to fold the turn. I'm not ever going for value this light.

Most 1/3 players aren't creative enough to play back at you, and until he has proven that he can don't mess with him.

Grunchish.

Preflop: Don't mind the flat. But 4b to $100 is a better line IMO. 4b/c or 4b/s depending on opponents sizing.

Flop: Check is good. Probably x/c but will have to take a read.

Turn: As played you now want to go to x/c, x/c mode. I don't think you're getting JJ-QQ to call any bets, but they may continue to bluff at the pot.

I figured I played this badly enough that it's embarrassing.

But I'm surprised that people see so much strength in that check on the flop. I read it as weakness. If villain has a hand like KK or QQ, I thought he would fear that I had an ace and would likely check the flop with those hands.

Edit: From villains point of view I also could have had an ace with a weaker kicker than AK, which would be a reason for him to bet (or at least in his mind could be a reason to bet).

How much would you guys make the 4-bet before the flop?

Shove on the turn is not good. I would 4 bet this hand to $110-120 and call a 5 bet.

As played I would probably fold on the turn. He is not raising with anything that doesn't beat you. If you hit a K you will probably win the pot but my guess is he has a big A. Sucks but sometimes we have to lay down KKs especially if we misplay them preflop.

I like to make it $110 pre. And the way I do it is announce raise, cut out $45 and put it in for the call. Then lay out another $65. Seems to draw more attention to the $65 and villains are more likely to call with worse. Makes it look more like $65 then $110.

I almost never bet out on the flop when it seems near impossible for my opponent to catch up and we can probably get all the chips in within two streets.

No straight and no flush possible, so probably opponent has pocket pair and maybe 2 outs, but they probably will fire on the turn for a big pot if I check it back and ill get one more street of value often enough to cover the 1 in 50 times I get burned.

Same thing as if you flop a sneaky full house, nobody usually has anything so we need to let them catch up a bit or give them another chance to fire at it.

Put yourself in villains shoes, heck he might even have AA.

Look at all te big boys coming out for this one....

Semi grunch: 4bet pre. Just not deep enough or proper dynamic to flat OOP.

Flop: either way ahead or way behind so checking seems good.
Turn: betting reps an ace. If he's slow playing tht won't work and if he doesn't have it you'll be lucky to get one bet from him so just save it. This is not a bad board to give another card. I'd be check eval on turn. Likely calling a bet. Hardly anything can change te board on the river so id bet/fold river assuming there was enough room to do so.

My main question is what is he 3 betting with preflop? AK AA are all discounted. It's a rare 1/3 player who 3 bets AQ and worse (besides me. I do it all the time).

Not deep enough= makes for an awkward SPR. Can flat in order to shove flop vs right opponent.