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Old 06-18-2021, 03:03 PM   #26
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Gil, you can do whatever you want. But to suggest that what you are doing is the only way to play correctly is incredibly misguided. Take, for instance, how the OP ended up playing the whole hand; you're simply not going to convince me that him 3betting preflop is more EV than flatting. Heck, in OPs case, it is probably the most EV to fold preflop to the initial raise (for realz). A huge part of "maximizing our EV" is putting ourselves in good spots for us (not for you, nor for me, or some author, or some blogger, or some computer, as that would make little sense), and this route will not be the same for everyone. All we can do is consider all our options, carefully and accurately evaluate all the factors, and then attempt to take a line that we think will be good *for us*.

So me, I'm flatting, and I think it's fine.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 06-18-2021, 03:04 PM   #27
snowman
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

def 3-bet but fold to the 4-bet
you see a 4-bet so seldom in low limit and when you do its 99.9% AA or KK
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Old 06-18-2021, 03:20 PM   #28
Nippleman
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

I feel like there needs to be a warning in the thread of "if you goal is to take the lowest EV, lowest risk line possible and your goal is not to get better at poker, do this" warning when someone suggests limp/calling with AKs.
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Old 06-18-2021, 03:21 PM   #29
Petrucci
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nippleman View Post
I feel like there needs to be a warning in the thread of "if you goal is to take the lowest EV, lowest risk line possible and your goal is not to get better at poker, do this" warning when someone suggests limp/calling with AKs.
Yup, pretty much this.
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Old 06-18-2021, 03:42 PM   #30
Petrucci
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Gil, you can do whatever you want. But to suggest that what you are doing is the only way to play correctly is incredibly misguided. Take, for instance, how the OP ended up playing the whole hand; you're simply not going to convince me that him 3betting preflop is more EV than flatting. Heck, in OPs case, it is probably the most EV to fold preflop to the initial raise (for realz). A huge part of "maximizing our EV" is putting ourselves in good spots for us (not for you, nor for me, or some author, or some blogger, or some computer, as that would make little sense), and this route will not be the same for everyone. All we can do is consider all our options, carefully and accurately evaluate all the factors, and then attempt to take a line that we think will be good *for us*.

So me, I'm flatting, and I think it's fine.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I am not arguing that what i am doing is the only correct way to play poker. Stop putting up your classic strawman statements.

What i am saying is that playing AKs is +EV regardless if you flat or 3 bet. But 3 bet is higher EV, and thus the line we should aim to execute.

Flat 7 days of the week if you want to, its +EV. But dont deny that you are leaving money on the table by not taking the highest EV route. That choice is up to you of course. I am just gonna say how it is, no BS. This isnt rocket science or anything. If you are that risk averse that you are scared of playing a 3 bet pot HU OOP with an ultra premium,then you have something to work on- not me.
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Old 06-18-2021, 04:01 PM   #31
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Again, there is no way 3betting is higher EV for OP than flatting. Flatting, he quietly check/folds this flop for peanuts when he misses with barely a scratch and moves on. 3betting he often feels entitled to continue to a 4bet and punt his huge stack with A high / no draw and destroys his session. This is all part of things that need to be factored in preflop.

It's funny, I can remember hearing/reading somewhere where someone argued for flatting AK in this spot. It dawned on me that it was a PokerSimple vlog by Tommy Angelo / Lee Jones (I'll let you search for it on YouTube if you're interested). Obviously they're way too old and their thoughts have little relevance to today's noo skool kidz (heck, even the video is from lol 2019 dinosaur age). But I did find it interesting that they actually made arguments for why flatting here may be better than 3betting for them. Now whether they are right or wrong or you agree with them or not is all irrelevant; the relevant part is that they're winning players with years of experience and published works who think it is perfectly ok for them to flat here (even at their skill level, which is likely far beyond that of OPs).

Gplayyourowngame,imoG
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Old 06-18-2021, 04:04 PM   #32
snowman
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Again, there is no way 3betting is higher EV for OP than flatting. Flatting, he quietly check/folds this flop for peanuts when he misses with barely a scratch and moves on. 3betting he often feels entitled to continue to a 4bet and punt his huge stack with A high / no draw and destroys his session. This is all part of things that need to be factored in preflop.

It's funny, I can remember hearing/reading somewhere where someone argued for flatting AK in this spot. It dawned on me that it was a PokerSimple vlog by Tommy Angelo / Lee Jones (I'll let you search for it on YouTube if you're interested). Obviously they're way too old and their thoughts have little relevance to today's noo skool kidz (heck, even the video is from lol 2019 dinosaur age). But I did find it interesting that they actually made arguments for why flatting here may be better than 3betting for them. Now whether they are right or wrong or you agree with them or not is all irrelevant; the relevant part is that they're winning players with years of experience and published works that think it is perfectly ok for them to flat here (even at their skill level, which is likely far beyond that of OPs).

Gplayyourowngame,imoG
tommys site improved by game by leaps and bounds 20 yrs ago and I still read
folding a limped small blind is still the best advise out there that 0% follow and they wonder why they lose
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Old 06-18-2021, 08:12 PM   #33
Amanaplan
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Ck decide flop.

I have no problem w 3b sizing, if anything it gave you room here to call a 4b and actually have some room to consider ck-continuing otf.

AP I mean, you ought to just know logically that you can't be stacking off pre w zero info, A high, in a 4b pot at 1/3.
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Old 06-18-2021, 09:37 PM   #34
jdr0317
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

As soon as I saw the topic of this thread, I just knew GG was going to ramble about the most passive/nitty line possible and strawman once someone said something in opposition.

3 pre too small, target 45-50. Live poker you can honestly consider folding to 4, but calling isn’t mentally deficient or anything. Fold to anything on flop greater than 1/3rd.

Also side note: just taking +EV situations doesn’t guarantee winning strategy, as poker is a negative sum game. And you’ll frequently be forced into -EV moves simply by having to post blinds. You need to make sure the value you’re gaining is bearing the value you lose by posting blinds and paying rake. Or else you’re not winning. And if you’re constantly passing on the most profitable play in order to reduce variance or “play postflop”, you’re going to find it tough, or even impossible, to crush a game.

Second side note: letting your opponents constantly realize all of their EV is how variance happens. The lowest variance play in this hand may legitimately be making it 50 preflop
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Old 06-19-2021, 05:08 AM   #35
BiiiiigChips
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
You dont need a bunch of rewards to take the most +EV line in a hand. Yes, of course its a much juicier spot potenially if we have a couple of callers and we can size up, people can put us on a light squeeze and spazz out++++.But you cant have everything in life, and everything isnt perfect all the time.



3 betting here is a necessity, IF you are looking to maximize your EV at the tables- wich i would imagine most players that posts on 2+2 is interested in doing. Just flatting is nitty scared money play for no freaking reason other than being scared of playing a 3 bet pot OOP eithout having AA and trying to justify it. Stop it,please.
This

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Old 06-19-2021, 08:19 AM   #36
jdr0317
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Again, there is no way 3betting is higher EV for OP than flatting. Flatting, he quietly check/folds this flop for peanuts when he misses with barely a scratch and moves on. 3betting he often feels entitled to continue to a 4bet and punt his huge stack with A high / no draw and destroys his session. This is all part of things that need to be factored in preflop.

It's funny, I can remember hearing/reading somewhere where someone argued for flatting AK in this spot. It dawned on me that it was a PokerSimple vlog by Tommy Angelo / Lee Jones (I'll let you search for it on YouTube if you're interested). Obviously they're way too old and their thoughts have little relevance to today's noo skool kidz (heck, even the video is from lol 2019 dinosaur age). But I did find it interesting that they actually made arguments for why flatting here may be better than 3betting for them. Now whether they are right or wrong or you agree with them or not is all irrelevant; the relevant part is that they're winning players with years of experience and published works who think it is perfectly ok for them to flat here (even at their skill level, which is likely far beyond that of OPs).

Gplayyourowngame,imoG

I just read this. Good God, literally everything you talk about is some worst case scenario where we might have to call a bet. The horror.

Literally, there’s no math behind this comment. At all. What is the point of even making it? Why does everyone in the universe feel compelled to blast off if they make an aggressive action before the flop?
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