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Old 06-17-2021, 04:41 PM   #1
PokerTwice
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1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Hi All,

Wanted to discuss a hand.

Hero’s stack is about $500, villain is about $800.

I’ve been pretty card dead, I don’t have many reads on the guy as I’ve only been there for about 15 minutes. (I moved from another table.)

He raises to 12 in MP. I look down at AK diamonds. I three bet to $35 and he goes to $80. I think about re raising but elect to call.

The flop is 10 6 2 rainbow with one diamond.

What does hero do?
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Old 06-17-2021, 04:52 PM   #2
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

This deep, OOP, readless, and with no other callers / dead money in the pot, I prefer a passive flat preflop. Give me some of those other conditions (shorter, in position, better understanding of our opponent, more dead money, denying equity of other callers, etc.) and I'd be more happier 3betting.

As played, due to the 4bet size we're getting decent immediate odds. But we're going to be playing OOP to an unknown player, and our RIO (against hands like AA/KK which he is clearly repping with his 4bet) are going to far outweigh our IO against hands like QQ (cuz they shouldn't lose nearly as much postflop as we will when behind). So I fold.

I don't get to the flop but I'm check/folding.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 06-17-2021, 05:00 PM   #3
samo
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

I'd make it $45 pre, then call a reasonable 4B.
If I had a read on the initial raiser, a 5B might be in order, but the negatives are: 1) 4B @ $1/$3 is usually KK+; 2) 5B/folding this hand would suck.

AP, X/F to most sizing.
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Old 06-17-2021, 07:06 PM   #4
PokerTwice
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Yeah I totally butchered the hand.

I put him on AK (He was younger and I know they tend to also play AK this way.)

I led out 160 and he jammed. I had about 240 behind and called it off.

I guess not playing for a while has screwed me up lol
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Old 06-17-2021, 07:07 PM   #5
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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Originally Posted by PokerTwice View Post
What does hero do?
This would depend on more info. What is your image at the table? Have you've ever 3bet anything, do you open raise a lot, are you considered tight to them?

What's the read on the villain? I know you might not know, but there are still reads even if you don't know. What does he look like? Is he young, old, does he handle chips like he's a pro, or are they stacked up piles of $50 - what I'm saying is even if you have no reads on him, most of the time we can just look at them and how they carry themselves at the table to try and put him in a category.

The more recreational he is, and the more tight you're perceived range is, I wouldn't mind folding one bit to a 4bet if I think his range is nutted. Even recreational players don't 4bet < AK.
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Old 06-17-2021, 07:15 PM   #6
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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Originally Posted by PokerTwice View Post
I put him on AK
You should always put people on a range rather then just one hand. So what you should do then is put him on a range that includes AK which could also include AA, KK, QQ, maybe even JJ or TT so AK would be at the bottom of his range.
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:07 PM   #7
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

i usually hate GG's advice but i think he's correct about playing passive preflop OOP in this spot.
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Old 06-18-2021, 01:44 AM   #8
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Preflop is totally fine. Fold flop though.
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Old 06-18-2021, 09:40 AM   #9
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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Preflop is totally fine. Fold flop though.
This. Also, I wouldn't donk flop here.
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Old 06-18-2021, 09:44 AM   #10
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Against an unknown, AK is a fold to 4 bet in LLSNL. It is AA, with a smattering of KK the vast majority of the time. Only if you see him 4 betting regularly would I look at calling or 5 betting.
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Old 06-18-2021, 12:01 PM   #11
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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Against an unknown, AK is a fold to 4 bet in LLSNL. It is AA, with a smattering of KK the vast majority of the time. Only if you see him 4 betting regularly would I look at calling or 5 betting.
Venice, sometimes I think you're a nit. I think you're right most of the time, but still on the nitty side. But then, I suppose that's because, though I thought I was a TAG, I'm actually a LAG (on the tighter side).
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Old 06-18-2021, 12:10 PM   #12
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

I know I'll get flack for saying this, but 3 betting AK from OOP pre-flop is not a great idea most of the time. Exception is if you're short stacked and can shove, fine.

But too often, we get at least one caller or a four-bet...

If you look at the posts on this forum, so many are AK/AQ from EP raised pre-flop. No really surprising since you usually whiff, and if you do hit the flop it's almost always a TPTK situation...if you're getting deep stacks in with TPTK on a regular basis, my guess is your a long term loser or are in the softest game in town!
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Old 06-18-2021, 12:12 PM   #13
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Pre is way too small, go $60. As played, calling the 4 bet is marginal. I x-f flop to any bet over 1/3 pot.

Oh, and just flatting the intial raise is horrible. We are way ahead of an unknown's opening range.
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Old 06-18-2021, 12:43 PM   #14
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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I know I'll get flack for saying this, but 3 betting AK from OOP pre-flop is not a great idea most of the time. Exception is if you're short stacked and can shove, fine.

But too often, we get at least one caller or a four-bet...

If you look at the posts on this forum, so many are AK/AQ from EP raised pre-flop. No really surprising since you usually whiff, and if you do hit the flop it's almost always a TPTK situation...if you're getting deep stacks in with TPTK on a regular basis, my guess is your a long term loser or are in the softest game in town!
It comes down to judgment. You need to know the tendencies of the person you're 3-betting. But then, that's usually made clear in the threads.
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Old 06-18-2021, 12:49 PM   #15
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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Oh, and just flatting the intial raise is horrible. We are way ahead of an unknown's opening range.
Being ahead of the openers range isn't the be-all / end-all of why we should 3bet or not.

GimoG
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Old 06-18-2021, 12:52 PM   #16
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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Pre is way too small, go $60. As played, calling the 4 bet is marginal. I x-f flop to any bet over 1/3 pot.

Oh, and just flatting the intial raise is horrible. We are way ahead of an unknown's opening range.
+1. Way way too small 3 bet sizing being OOP and nearly 150+ blinds deep.

Also lol at flatting with a hand strong as AK suited. We are leaving so much money long term at the tables just flatting this from the SB.
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Old 06-18-2021, 12:53 PM   #17
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Being ahead of the openers range isn't the be-all / end-all of why we should 3bet or not.

GimoG
Not neccesarily, that is correct. But having an ultrapremium 5 percent hand that is destroying the MP opening range is one good reason, amongst several reasons.
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Old 06-18-2021, 01:03 PM   #18
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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Not neccesarily, that is correct. But having an ultrapremium 5 percent hand that is destroying the MP opening range is one good reason, amongst several reasons.
I list a bunch of reasons above to where I have far more incentive to 3bet. So while being ahead of his opening range is one reason to 3bet, with no other incentives in play I don't think 3betting is an absolute necessity.

For me it's all about risk versus reward. Give me more potential rewards, and I'm more willing to take more risk; but without the rewards, there is not as much reason to take risks.

GimoG
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Old 06-18-2021, 01:15 PM   #19
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I list a bunch of reasons above to where I have far more incentive to 3bet. So while being ahead of his opening range is one reason to 3bet, with no other incentives in play I don't think 3betting is an absolute necessity.

For me it's all about risk versus reward. Give me more potential rewards, and I'm more willing to take more risk; but without the rewards, there is not as much reason to take risks.

GimoG
You dont need a bunch of rewards to take the most +EV line in a hand. Yes, of course its a much juicier spot potenially if we have a couple of callers and we can size up, people can put us on a light squeeze and spazz out++++.But you cant have everything in life, and everything isnt perfect all the time.

3 betting here is a necessity, IF you are looking to maximize your EV at the tables- wich i would imagine most players that posts on 2+2 is interested in doing. Just flatting is nitty scared money play for no freaking reason other than being scared of playing a 3 bet pot OOP eithout having AA and trying to justify it. Stop it,please.
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Old 06-18-2021, 01:47 PM   #20
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

Gotta say Gil, if there is one thing I can say about you is that you certainly don't lack confidence. It's always black versus white, no inbetween, no room for anything else, and that this move is always clearly massively more EV than any other move regardless of anything (including our own personal overall styles of how we each approach our own profitable poker methodology), etc. And yet all oddly enough without showing any math whatsoever to back up your "maximum EV" claims.

Course, I can't show any math to back up my claims either. It's likely far more complex than any of us actually realize (especially when you consider none of us mere humans are remotely capable of identifying whatever "maximum EV" line that some computer has figured out in whatever way it has). But that's why I don't take as hard a line as you on things. Do what you want here. Get yourself in spots that you are fond of. I've given the OP some things I would consider when making my choice here. Everyone is free to make the same considerations and then make the choice that they think will be best for them.

GgoodluckG
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Old 06-18-2021, 02:14 PM   #21
spikeraw22
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

I’m pretty sure those fancy computers have actually worked this out to be a 3 bet nearly 100% of the time. No disrespect to any humans itt.
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Old 06-18-2021, 02:19 PM   #22
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

And now all we have to do is navigate that line postflop. OOP. Deep. To a complete unknown. While not having our hand held by that computer.

Gwhatcouldpossiblygowrong?G
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Old 06-18-2021, 02:21 PM   #23
Petrucci
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Gotta say Gil, if there is one thing I can say about you is that you certainly don't lack confidence. It's always black versus white, no inbetween, no room for anything else, and that this move is always clearly massively more EV than any other move regardless of anything (including our own personal overall styles of how we each approach our own profitable poker methodology), etc. And yet all oddly enough without showing any math whatsoever to back up your "maximum EV" claims.

Course, I can't show any math to back up my claims either. It's likely far more complex than any of us actually realize (especially when you consider none of us mere humans are remotely capable of identifying whatever "maximum EV" line that some computer has figured out in whatever way it has). But that's why I don't take as hard a line as you on things. Do what you want here. Get yourself in spots that you are fond of. I've given the OP some things I would consider when making my choice here. Everyone is free to make the same considerations and then make the choice that they think will be best for them.

GgoodluckG

Come on man. You have freaking 33K posts on this forum. 33 000 posts. If you need me to explain to you that 3 betting AKs in this spot is higher EV than flatting i really dont know what to tell you.
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Old 06-18-2021, 02:28 PM   #24
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

And the thing I've learned in those 33000 posts is that the quickest way down the mountain for me isn't the run with the steepest slope.

GseeyouontheslopesG
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Old 06-18-2021, 02:36 PM   #25
Petrucci
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Re: 1/3 NL AKs in Small Blind

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
And now all we have to do is navigate that line postflop. OOP. Deep. To a complete unknown. While not having our hand held by that computer.

Gwhatcouldpossiblygowrong?G
Yeah, its called playing poker. We take what we know is +EV lines, and make our decisions as they come to us.

Lol at being afraid of 3 betting an unknown 1/3 villain with an ultra premium becuase we are OOP. Sweet jesus.
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