In a specific scenario in which we raised 4bb pre and everyone called, GG is likely to have the highest overall EV by getting to SD with lower frequency than everyone else in this thread.

And GG's EV might not even be positive.

You’re too worked up over nitpicking examples and not enough on the general premise of the idea of what a mistake is. Why not address that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why would GGs EV not be positive?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Have I said at any point, *even in the 10way SPR 2 situation*, that it isn't?

GcluelessNLnoobG

Well what makes AA +EV?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The lower the spr, the easier it is, the less mistakes we could make, the better overpairs perform. You talk about getting to the flop with an spr of 2 like it's terrible. In reality it makes it incredibly simple, because the game tree is so short. Yeah, we'll lose a reasonable portion of the time, but we'll crush overall, and it's almost certainly the highest ev. We basically never need to fold because the spr is so low, losing to 2p semi frequently isn't a big deal. If the spr was higher, obviously it would be different. Going 9 ways to the flop with an spr of 8 would be very different, stacking off isn't comfortable anymore. With 2, we're printing money in this scenario, our EV is so much higher than hu. And this applies giving everyone atc, or giving them all top 20% hands

The question isn't what's EV and what isn't. The question is what do you think is *more* EV?

I've stated my answer and you've stated yours and we disagree.

GgoodlucktoyouG

No. What makes AA +EV? It’s a simple question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe you should try to explain what point you're attempting to make?

Getting dealt AA isn't just automatically +EV.; I'm fairly certain you could think of a general method you could take that would make it otherwise. Your questions are as obtuse as asking "What makes 64o +EV" (and yes, there will be times that statement is true and times it won't be true) and I just don't see how we're getting anywhere.

Gabouttotapout,tbhG

Why are you so hesitant to answer what amounts to a simple theory question? There’s a pretty easy reason as to why AA is +EV and 64o is -EV in this preflop decision point.

It’s very simple. In your opinion, what makes AA a profitable hand to play from EP?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why do you so desperately need to know his point before you answer the question? Afraid that he will rip apart your nonsense and strawman arguments like others have done countless times before on this forum?

Just answer the question.

Sent fra min SM-G975F via Tapatalk

You know what, I'm going to tap out of this.

Here's a fact: getting dealt AA (in any position) doesn't make it automatically +EV. You can easily come up with a method to play it poorly enough to make it -EV. Most people's methods aren't poor enough to actually do that, but you could certainly design one. So if you want to go around and around with you silly questions without a hint of where you're going, at least pose one where your assumed answer isn't incorrect.

GtappingoutG

That’s totally a different point. Like hey here’s a bad way to play AA: put money in preflop and then check fold flop no matter what the flop is. That’s clearly -EV. And it’s clearly terrible strategically.

It’s not a silly question at all. It’s the bedrock of why we have ranges in certain situations to begin with. And you’re right in that it’s dynamic based on skill level; an intermediate player who requires structure may want to use a tight strategy while a more expert player who can proactively go after exploits to push thinner edges may utilize a more loose strategy.

But essentially, people construct ranges preflop with the belief that the hands they will play will make them money, while the hands they don’t play would lose them money.

Hence my question of whether you think AA is +EV?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JDR:

Make. Your. Point.

Or don't.

It's up to you.

GtappingoutotherwiseG

I sometimes fold AA pre to balance my folding range.
#lolbalance

It’s really a simple question. Is AA profitable from UTG? If yes, why is it? This is like the first 2 minutes of any lesson on ranges in poker. The higher level point is pretty obvious. The lower level point, well, I can’t even make it if you can’t define to me what profitable hands to play are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What's with "and raz" in the title?

Possibly should have been "raze".

SquidSpeak if I'm not mistaken.

You belong in the camp that AA is profitable no matter what you do, and therefore you would want scenarios in which there would be more money in the pot.

GG clearly doesn't belong in that camp.

I am not in that camp as well and cited RIO in regards to position and decision tree involving more players.

You have provided zero response to those points and kept spinning in circles.

FWIW, best poker players in the world aren't evaluated by their ability to play OOP against 6 opponents. So to think that you can or even want to evolve into a player who can crush 6 opponents with AA while out of position is misguided to say the least.

I’m convinced you’re trolling at the moment. I’ve already acknowledged we can turn AA into a -EV play by opening and then blindly folding no matter what the flop is. The solution is to play better.

So I’ll pose the exact same question to you: is AA a profitable hand to play from UTG?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, he said this:

Confirmed troll?

It's pretty hard for someone to not be +EV here unless they're deliberately trying to lose. Even if you only continue when you flop a set your EV is > 4BB preflop investment.

At least I can take GG seriously and trust he's arguing in good faith.

Basically I am being called a troll because you guys do not understand the basic concept behind RIO.

Can you not comprehend that the bold statement is what GG has been arguing?

By only continuing with set with AA, you are effectively eliminating RIO. But clearly that won't be the case and there will be a lot of instances where you lose the other 96bb by showdown.

The point, again, is that more players involved in this hand will create more complicated decision tree. More complicated decision tree will result in higher RIO.

Unless you minimize the RIO by playing very carefully and passively post flop, something that most of you are mocking GG about, your RIO can very well make AA -EV.

But hey, clearly if you cannot beat bunch of LLSNL fish with AA, then you cannot be the best player in LLSNL...and everyone posting here are great crushing players.

Depends on your ability, effective stack sizes, and how many opponents are involved.

Been repeating this over and over - not sure which part is this difficult to understand.

Let me ask you a similar question:

UTG, is EV of AA the same against 3 opponents as 6 opponents?

Of course not. We don’t know what the action sequence is behind us. That’s like asking if we open 97s BTN, would we rather the blinds fold or the sb 3 bet. Clearly the former, but the former happens often enough in conjunction with the latter happening rarely enough to make 97s a profitable open.

It doesn’t really matter if you butcher AA so badly postflop that it becomes -EV on average. If you’re that bad, fold it and start figuring out why you’re bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk