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Old 06-16-2016, 03:11 PM   #26
HappyLuckBox
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

Pretty trivial shove
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:07 PM   #27
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Originally Posted by berninader View Post
Next time don't post the flop. Or better yet, stop remembering what the flop even was. You'll become a better poker player if you do.
I'm fine with it. Process > results. Sucks I would've won, but I'm not taking AK against KK or AA.
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:09 PM   #28
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Originally Posted by HappyLuckBox View Post
Pretty trivial shove
It really isn't trivial whatsoever(in this game) when a straightforward V open/4b to a calculated sizing over an all in and more importantly straight into hero's face-up AKs/JJ+ 3b range with 130bb+ in play.

These are very big bets for this game and there just are rarely any levels in play. AKs would be more of a spew shove than anything else under these conditions.
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:17 PM   #29
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

Getting AK in preflop for 130bb is standard, IMO.
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:33 PM   #30
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Originally Posted by Dangus View Post
Wouldn't even be posting this, but half the table was aghast at my laydown, so...
I like a fold, others don't but whether or not it's a bad fold, showing is way worse. Stop being a huge fish.
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:57 PM   #31
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Originally Posted by WereBeer View Post
I like a fold, others don't but whether or not it's a bad fold, showing is way worse. Stop being a huge fish.
Is it that weak?

EDIT: If I didn't know he had the goods, I wouldn't have shown... does that make it worse?
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Old 06-16-2016, 06:16 PM   #32
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
Getting AK in preflop for 130bb is standard, IMO.
In a vacuum, sure, particularly once it's 3bet... But I also think it's ok to have some non zero folding frequency in spots, where range protection and FE are moot points, like here facing an ABC 4b range for what might be enough money irl where BR/risk tolerance could come into play.
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Old 06-16-2016, 07:28 PM   #33
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Is it that weak?

EDIT: If I didn't know he had the goods, I wouldn't have shown... does that make it worse?
When you play poker, you are engaged in a contest to take other people's money. Poker is a game of incomplete information. When you show your cards like this, you are providing free information to the entire table. You are filling in the blanks for them. Is that a good idea?
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Old 06-16-2016, 11:31 PM   #34
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Originally Posted by WereBeer View Post
When you play poker, you are engaged in a contest to take other people's money. Poker is a game of incomplete information. When you show your cards like this, you are providing free information to the entire table. You are filling in the blanks for them. Is that a good idea?
Even if I knew he had AA or KK? Or does that more say, "hey, try to level this guy!"
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Old 06-16-2016, 11:35 PM   #35
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Even if I knew he had AA or KK? Or does that more say, "hey, try to level this guy!"
Even if you knew what he had, why does knowing his cards make it a good idea to show your cards?
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:02 AM   #36
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Even if you knew what he had, why does knowing his cards make it a good idea to show your cards?
Would this not potentially invite bluffs?
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:19 AM   #37
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Originally Posted by Dangus View Post
Would this not potentially invite bluffs?
you 3b-f AKs, all it's going to do is give off the perception that your wont put in money w/o the nuts. Even if it did invite "bluffs", are you ever widening your range as a counter adjustment? Are you going to be capable of calling down lighter just becasue you think you've opened up their ranges by open folding AKs in a 4b pot? Most importantly, when youre capped and you're getting heavy action, will you have a handle on your perceived image at the time?
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:57 AM   #38
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
you 3b-f AKs, all it's going to do is give off the perception that your wont put in money w/o the nuts. Even if it did invite "bluffs", are you ever widening your range as a counter adjustment? Are you going to be capable of calling down lighter just becasue you think you've opened up their ranges by open folding AKs in a 4b pot? Most importantly, when youre capped and you're getting heavy action, will you have a handle on your perceived image at the time?
When I folded, I did say it was because I knew he had KK or AA and that I wasn't going to draw against that. Though I suppose for the less enlightened or disbelievers that could be interpreted as without the nuts.

I did widen my range but was only there for another ~60 minutes. Opened a pot UTG with T9s, got four callers, took it down with a flop checkraise with air. Another, flopped bottom two on a connected board, turn came another connected card and I got out of dodge with two calls to the lead bet.

But I do see and agree with your point. The knock on effects may not be worth showing. EDIT: Probably aren't worth showing. Except for very, very specific circumstances. Thanks for the input.

Last edited by Dangus; 06-17-2016 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 06-17-2016, 05:14 AM   #39
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Would this not potentially invite bluffs?
Yes, because you told 8 people who know that you can make a big laydown. Which means any one of them knows that they can bluff you light. So how are you going to know you're being bluffed? You can't initially, meaning you are going to have to make folds which are correct in a vacuum, which costs money. You are opening yourself to being exploited for no reason.

People tend to show for 2 reasons, one is to show off and the other is to 'create an image'. But every time you show, you are giving free information to the entire table, which can then be used against you. Instead of seeking to 'create an image ' by showing your cards, don't show and use your image.

For example, I play a pretty standard ABC preflop range for online play. This looks incredibly tight to the typical line up at my local casino. They take notice and will sometimes comment on it. Meanwhile I'm working out which of them have the ability to fold and are paying attention. Those people tend to overfold against me, consequently I can bluff much wider than I would against an unknown 2/3 player. I've had a shortstack lay down top pair on the turn with a third of his stack behind. I've had the button fold AK to my resteal from the blinds. They 'knew' I had a monster, but they were wrong.

Go ahead and use your image, it's not a problem when weaker players pigeonhole you...it's a good thing.
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:20 AM   #40
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Originally Posted by Dangus View Post
3-bet sizing... yeah, probably. Thanks guys.
Not probably, it was awful. I don't hate the flashed cards as much as I hate the 3-bet, although maybe I should.
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Old 06-17-2016, 09:02 AM   #41
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

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Originally Posted by Dangus View Post
I did widen my range but was only there for another ~60 minutes. Opened a pot UTG with T9s, got four callers, took it down with a flop checkraise with air. Another, flopped bottom two on a connected board, turn came another connected card and I got out of dodge with two calls to the lead bet.
I don't think widening your opening range is a good idea after showing. I don't want to put words in WereBeer's mouth, but I think he means widening your defending/call-down range.

If you were hoping to induce bluff action, widening your UTG opening range is not good because you give every opponent an opportunity to play back at you (that's what you wanted when you showed, right?)

I'd adjust by tightening my opening range (so I can defend a higher % against what we think will be increased aggression) and making lighter calls post flop. But this is risky because if our opponents don't adjust, then we are losing some value opens and calling down lighter into strong ranges. So it's really a guessing game.
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Old 06-17-2016, 09:59 AM   #42
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

I always love the 'show' - 'no show' discussions. I am a regular 'shower' of cards in my regular rooms. I am also a very LAG player so to me it just reinforces my image. For certain players, as in this thread perhaps, it would possibly open up the door for being played back at.

Contrary to most, I believe that my shows generate enough 'future folds' to justify the information that I'm giving out. If the players around you think that you can read their hands to the point of making these folds then they will tend to give you the benefit of the doubt in future pots when I am the aggressor.

Here are 2 examples of shows last night in my weekly 2/5 game ...
1) I have been opening often from any position, and almost always in the BB when it limps around. NEW Player to our game is on B for my BB jokingly states he's gonna 'get me' sooner or later and has never 3-bet me. OTTH ... I look down at KK in BB and open for $20 after it 4-way limps around ... no callers and B raises to $45. Obv a spot to 4-bet but I 'feel' he's calling anyway and my hand is well hidden. Flop comes AT6 .. I check and as soon as he reaches for chips I open fold the KK face up. Guy goes nuts and slams down his AJs while saying 'damn' how do I not get your stack!!

Guy proceeds to bleed/tilt off $600 of his $700 stack over the next hour .. including 3 folds to me with junk when I figured a Flop missed him. I pull in well over $180 of pots that should've been his. Net gain from show .. $135 while not getting into a 'stack' type battle in the KK hand.

2) Very ABC tight player who I have tons of history with opens UTG for $20. This is always AK/face-face/pp>88. Surprisingly he gets 3 callers so I come along from the SB with QJs for $15 more into $90. V rolls his eyes when 'everyone' calls and the Flop comes out JT9r. Normally V wouldn't bet into any Flop like this unless he connected so I check to see what's up even though I would normally try to build a pot here. V's demeanor changes and he bets out $65. This is pure value. With an over-pair (if he bets at all) or set he is looking to protect and would probably bet $80 ish.

Folds to me and I tank call .. based on history this lets V know I hit board. I get the 'perfect' Turn card for me to really figure out what's going on here ... 7 ... I check, and V basically insta-bets. This V would never bet into me when that card hits the board without a 'better' hand available. He is not betting his sets there since he knows I would c/r any 8x. So I know he has 8x or KQ, probably KQ. After a bit of a tank I fold and show saying "I guess a chop is not in the cards" .. The show is not for him, but for the rest of the table, especially another player that I have been mixing it up with that is much deeper than this V. This player says 'WTF' and then the V, for whatever reason, shows off his KQ to reinforce 'my' image at the table.

Hard to calculate any payback here, but for most of the players this will generate future folds if I c/r or lead out into boards like this. My target however, the deep stack, now sees the 2nd big fold of the night and 'will' try to take me off a hand later ... and hopefully it's one I can trap with and reap the benefits from.

Yes, these are 'deep' meta games. I don't show as much, if at all, in rooms where I'm not a regular unless I see where I need to do it to change the table dynamic a bit.

I agree that poker is a game of information ... but I am offering 'mis'-information when I make these shows. I'm not always going to make folds like this and I'm definitely going to be more aggressive when I think I can steal a pot in the same situation. But by showing a 'big' fold it reinforces the fact that I may be loose, but I'm not betting without 'it' once the Flop/Turn come out.

Of course it could be a bit of patting myself on the back ... AND these player's really shouldn't be showing me that I made the correct decision (those are the 'bad' shows) ... but I find it to be an intriguing facet of the game to keep opponents off balance. Sorry to blab on here but it just fits to what happened last night. GL

Last edited by answer20; 06-17-2016 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 06-17-2016, 11:55 AM   #43
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

Since we can assume the V is a competent player, I'd be incline to say the 5-bet is an isolation raise with a marginally good hand (small-medium pairs, marginal suited aces, broadway cards) that's crushed by better hands in your range.

But given my experience in 1-2/1-3 games, 99% of players prefer not to see a flop in a big pot 3+ ways with AA-QQ. I think we can assume the retracted call that turns into a raise means exactly this. He has AA-KK a lot here because he fears being outdrawn with an additional player if he flats and invites you into the pot.

Pretty comfortable fold knowing that if he does have AA-KK he's making a huge mistake by not dragging you along in the pot and most likely crushing your range.
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Old 06-17-2016, 01:53 PM   #44
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Re: 1/3: Nitfold? AKs facing a 5-bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20 View Post
I always love the 'show' - 'no show' discussions. I am a regular 'shower' of cards in my regular rooms. I am also a very LAG player so to me it just reinforces my image. For certain players, as in this thread perhaps, it would possibly open up the door for being played back at.

Contrary to most, I believe that my shows generate enough 'future folds' to justify the information that I'm giving out. If the players around you think that you can read their hands to the point of making these folds then they will tend to give you the benefit of the doubt in future pots when I am the aggressor.

Here are 2 examples of shows last night in my weekly 2/5 game ...
1) I have been opening often from any position, and almost always in the BB when it limps around. NEW Player to our game is on B for my BB jokingly states he's gonna 'get me' sooner or later and has never 3-bet me. OTTH ... I look down at KK in BB and open for $20 after it 4-way limps around ... no callers and B raises to $45. Obv a spot to 4-bet but I 'feel' he's calling anyway and my hand is well hidden. Flop comes AT6 .. I check and as soon as he reaches for chips I open fold the KK face up. Guy goes nuts and slams down his AJs while saying 'damn' how do I not get your stack!!

Guy proceeds to bleed/tilt off $600 of his $700 stack over the next hour .. including 3 folds to me with junk when I figured a Flop missed him. I pull in well over $180 of pots that should've been his. Net gain from show .. $135 while not getting into a 'stack' type battle in the KK hand.

2) Very ABC tight player who I have tons of history with opens UTG for $20. This is always AK/face-face/pp>88. Surprisingly he gets 3 callers so I come along from the SB with QJs for $15 more into $90. V rolls his eyes when 'everyone' calls and the Flop comes out JT9r. Normally V wouldn't bet into any Flop like this unless he connected so I check to see what's up even though I would normally try to build a pot here. V's demeanor changes and he bets out $65. This is pure value. With an over-pair (if he bets at all) or set he is looking to protect and would probably bet $80 ish.

Folds to me and I tank call .. based on history this lets V know I hit board. I get the 'perfect' Turn card for me to really figure out what's going on here ... 7 ... I check, and V basically insta-bets. This V would never bet into me when that card hits the board without a 'better' hand available. He is not betting his sets there since he knows I would c/r any 8x. So I know he has 8x or KQ, probably KQ. After a bit of a tank I fold and show saying "I guess a chop is not in the cards" .. The show is not for him, but for the rest of the table, especially another player that I have been mixing it up with that is much deeper than this V. This player says 'WTF' and then the V, for whatever reason, shows off his KQ to reinforce 'my' image at the table.

Hard to calculate any payback here, but for most of the players this will generate future folds if I c/r or lead out into boards like this. My target however, the deep stack, now sees the 2nd big fold of the night and 'will' try to take me off a hand later ... and hopefully it's one I can trap with and reap the benefits from.

Yes, these are 'deep' meta games. I don't show as much, if at all, in rooms where I'm not a regular unless I see where I need to do it to change the table dynamic a bit.

I agree that poker is a game of information ... but I am offering 'mis'-information when I make these shows. I'm not always going to make folds like this and I'm definitely going to be more aggressive when I think I can steal a pot in the same situation. But by showing a 'big' fold it reinforces the fact that I may be loose, but I'm not betting without 'it' once the Flop/Turn come out.

Of course it could be a bit of patting myself on the back ... AND these player's really shouldn't be showing me that I made the correct decision (those are the 'bad' shows) ... but I find it to be an intriguing facet of the game to keep opponents off balance. Sorry to blab on here but it just fits to what happened last night. GL
I'm going to echo good ol limon on this one: the problem I have with this advertising is that you are effectively teaching these players to play less face-up against you. When your opponent makes mistakes (in this case - being too predictable), you don't want to let them know they are making mistakes. You want them to keep hanging themselves, and reap the profits. You don't encourage them to change their behavior (which is obviously very profitable for you). Let them figure it out after 5 straight losing sessions instead of figuring it out tonight. Most fish possess so much cognitive dissonance, they might not ever figure it out if you never let them know.

Now, by doing this advertising, you are possibly encouraging them to make different kinds of mistakes. But you taught them something, and that something is more learning than most of them do in dozens of hours of live play.

I prefer to play against level 0 players more than level 1 players, level 1 players more than level 2 players, and so on. Makes me more money, with less stress and less variance. How about you?
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