1/3 at local casino

Hero: late 20s white male, weekend warrior wannabe pro.

No reads on table, only been at seat for 3 hands or so.

Hero ~$350
Villain 1 ~$450
V2 ~$260

V1 is utg +1, raises to $13
V2 Calls in CO
Hero on BTN calls with Kh Jh
Everyone else folds

~$40 in the pot
Flop Kc 6h 9h
V1 checks
V2 checks
Hero bets $25
V1 Calls
V2 Calls

Pot is ~$115
Turn 7c
V1 bets $100
V2 jams for ~$220
Hero ????

Snap fold.

First off if you are really new to poker I would fold KJhh preflop. If you call I'm calling and treating KJ like a suited connector. In other words if villain bets $30 into a $38 pot on a Kxx no h board I'm folding w/out reads. However if villain checks or fires a weak bet you can possibly take it away vs his AJ+ and under pocket pairs to the top card type hands. okay on to the hand.

Flop seems good to me. I'd fold ott. v1 is repping sets, nfds, maybe AK, AA. v2 is who I'm most worried about. I think he has 2 pair + pretty often. Also I hate losing big pots early in a session. so for all those reasons I fold ott.

I gave v1 3 combos(this might be too many) of AK, gave him KK, 99, 77, AQhh, AThh.

I gave v2 99, 77,66, all the 2 pair combos.

You are 19% against that range also there are some gutshots that got there ott that I didn't include. Assuming v1 folds we are getting almost 2:1 to call. In that case we are 31% and aren't getting the right price plus I think v1 folds pretty much never so fold.

Fold.

I would have probably folded pre only because 1) you just got there 2) you have Zero reads.

I personally play extremely tight for the first few orbits, just to get a feel for the table and see how others are playing.

Fold pre-flop, flop bet was fine, fold on the turn... pretty simple.

I'm guessing preflop is kinda close. We're often in pretty bad shape against a typical EP raiser, but if one/both of the blinds are going to come along, we can treat this as a multiway hand in position. We're getting a decent price and thanks to our position can hopefully figure out pretty quick when TP ain't good, so I don't hate the call.

I think I often overvalue TP + flushdraw. I actually think middle pair (or even bottom pair) + flush draw might be more valueable as it's likely we have more outs since those calling a flop bet might also have a better TP. So whereas with stronger draws (which pair + flush draw is) I'm usually cool with piling big money in on the flop, I think it's sorta ok to play TP + flushdraw slower (especially since we have showdown value, unlike typically with bottom pair if we get called). When both opponents call the bet, I'm kinda thinking I might have to hit my draw.

Stop'n'go by preflop raiser is concerning, especially a big bet into two opponents. The raise by the other guy is also pretty scary too. We're most likely way in third place and need to hit our flush. We don't have the odds to do so, so easy fold, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Wow.

You have the button, a top 8% starting hand, a flat caller, and >100 BB ES. It's closer to a 3-bet than a fold.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate the advice. I'm not new to poker, just new to posting to 2+2, I've just lurked here for a year or so.

I guess I'm lying a little when I say I have no reads. The casino I play I've gone to about 4-5 times a month for the last 7 months or so. It is filled with a lot of passive stations who are fine with calling off with top pair decent kicker. It's rare to see a lot of aggression on a 1/3 table there. Based on everything you posted though, I doubt this changes your thoughts on the hand.

Thanks again for the post and analysis.

So if you 3-bet KJ at a 1/3 game, one of three things is going to happen:

Two folds take it down (this is really dependent on reads and your image which we don't have either).
You get a call and you are behind. Nobody at 1/3 calls a 3-bet PF with a hand less than KJ.
You get 4-bet and have to release the hand.

Without a read on the player and fostering an image for yourself, there really isn't a good outcome for this 3-bet. Now, if you are painting a picture for later in the game, a 3-bet is perfectly understandable.

If you want to call, that's fine but KJ has never been a winning hand.

Pretty straightforward hand imo.

Pre is a mistake. If we were deeper, or the hand were going multiway, it'd be a call to nutmine. But in this situation it's a clear fold preflop. Calling raises with KJ is a leak, since we will be dominated so often. This is doubly true for calling an EP raise, but even if the CO opens, and I'm on the button, I'm folding KJ almost every time.

Don't like 3-betting without reads either, and I wouldn't 3-bet bluff with this hand anyway. I'd much rather do it with 78s (deception) and A3s (playability) type hands than KJs.

Flop is a clear bet; it's checked to us and we have great equity and position. I would've raised a cbet there as well.

Turn is a clear fold; too much action for our hand and our flush equity just got cut in half, and it's not unlikely that one of them has a better flush draw and the other has a strong made hand meaning we have almost no equity at all.

Taking it down is a great outcome, and a pretty likely one. Getting called isn't so bad either. Your hand is slightly behind his range, but position and initiative are on your side. With a K blocker you'll get 4-bet even less often than usual.

And I love painting pictures. Your very first orbit is the best time to do it. First impressions tend to stick in my experience, even if your next 20 hands in a row are completely unplayable.

As played it's an easy fold.

The flop is a WA/WB situation. You're only worried about three non-heart aces. If you had to rate your hand-strength it's showdown value, so no reason to bet.


21.6% of poker hands are ahead of KJs -> 22+,A2s+,KQs,A2o+,KQo

I wouldn't hate this if our reads were clearer and opener was in LP (especially if he was capable of isoing a limper wide).

With no reads and versus an EP opener, not so much, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I don't think it's WA/WB since we have so many outs if we are behind. A bet is basically just putting money into the pot while we should have decent equity, plus give us turn options if everyone checks to us (where then we could check behind UI and try to get to showdown).

But it's also not the same as having bottom pair + flush draw, where a bet is really attempting to have FE. Here, we're not really attempting to have FE with TP, and we have showdown value, so I understand the thought of getting to later streets cheaper.

GfindsTP+drawtrickyG

If were going all-in pre-flop, you're absolutely right. I don't plan on doing that though.

How can the flop be WA/WB when we don't know what the flop is? What if the flop is 9h Th 3s?

Welcome to the forum, OP. It is good to ask questions, but like many new posters in LLSNL, you aren't asking yourself the right questions.

The first should be why don't I have any reads. You have plenty of information out there to evaluate. Questions you should have answered before you even first look at your cards when you sit down include (this is not an exhaustive list):

Male/Female.
How dressed (sloppy, neat, more formal etc.)
Are the chips neatly stacked in even towers of 20 or mixed up?
How did the villain look at their cards? Did they cup the cards or lift them up, did the look at them multiple times?
Did they know how to cut out the chips for the bet?
Are they drinking anything? Adult beverage, coffee, juice, soda?

I bring these up because they are all reads you can get at the start of the first hand. They provide clues as to the skills and tendencies of the players. They aren't perfect, but they are better than saying, "I don't know anything." The secret of LLSNL is that most hand histories the OP believes are tough are only tough because they don't have any reads. If they had the reads, they wouldn't be tough. That's a reason that you see the better posters on this forum will rarely if ever post hands.

As played, KJ has a number of nicknames among older players. Often called Kojak (from a 1970's TV show), it is also known as the silver medalist. It makes far too often the second best hand at showdown. For many players, I'd just fold KJs pf to an EP raise. You'll need to hit 2 pair+ to have any confidence in the hand. If I thought the villain was opening very wide, I'd 3bet.

As played, the flop is fine. Even if we don't have the best hand (and we don't know that yet), we have a good draw. On the turn, things went out of control. You haven't even bet yet and they're looking to get stacks in. I'd fold.

It's a good outcome, not a great one. We probably win more overall taking pots away postflop with position when he misses

Thanks to all who replied and I have a few more reads to make sure i mentally note when at the table.