1/3 9 handed Saturday 10pm @ casino.

I've been at the table for 1.5 hrs, lineup hasn't changed. Table has been limp calling a lot with opens from $12-$18. There are 7 chatty, passive, drinking recs and one very quiet, good grinder (V).

H: ($480) BB, 33yo WM, I've been in a bunch of pots in a short time due to a run of cards/one good bluff so the table def sees me as LAG but I'm a borderline nit. Only showed down a flopped boat so far. The grinder knows I'm TAG for sure but no one else.

V: ($680) BTN, Late 20s early 30s WM. Good LAG that has a fold button. I’ve played against him a few times. Opens wide from co/btn even over a limper or two. Semi bluffs well and picks up abandoned pots.

OTTH

Ep chatty drinker limps, mp chatty drinker limps, V otb raise $12, sb fold, H bb 9 9. If I call this pot is going 4 ways to the flop ~always and both limper are $400+ deep. I also don’t want to play oop vs this guy w/ mid pair in 3b pot so I flat. Both limpers call.

Flop: ($45) K 9 8

H?

I was fairly sure V was cbetting a ton here if he has any piece. C/r? Lead?
All advice welcome, thanks gang.

With your image would def put in a hefty x/r. Will be very annoying if btn checks behind, but a LAG probably can't help himself on a K high flop. Aside from the risk of a check behind, the other downside of x/r is losing intermediate players if they have a K, but whatever. There are a lot of upsides to x/r which are pretty obvious, so I won't bother enumerating them.

With your read that villain is an active C-bettor, i am checking this nearly 100 percent of the time. Also its rear for this type of wet board to get checked around multiway. Somebody usually stabs with either a KJ/KQ type of hand, flushdraw, open ender, mid pair+ gutshot or anything like that.

Depending on who bets (and how much= wich often gives good indications on how strong of a range they have), i either check-call the bet or go for the check-raise. If i manage to get a good read that the villain betting the flop likes his hand, i often check-raise big and go for what i call "bomb sizing", because it:

1) Gives me huge payoffs with sets at a quite astonishing rate. Villains often puts me on a draw instead of a monster made hand when i use big sizing. I actually use the overbetshove on flops sometimes too if i feels the situations warrants it, and the successrate is very good.

2) It serves some balances purposes/helps me tune my whole range, because i sometimes prefer to use big sizing on my semibluffs as well (wich we will have quite a few combos of on this particular flop).

You could check, but you need to be pretty sure V is going to be this flop. If he's a good LAG, he probably won't unless he's actually got a piece of it. cbetting into three opponents with nothing is tends to move chips in the wrong directions, since it's likely someone is going to call at least the flop and often the turn as well.

Assuming the other V's aren't good, they'll probably check to the raiser, though there's always a chance one of them will donk to see where they're at, or whatever.

All in all, I don't think this is a good flop to check. I think there's too much chance it'll get checked around and we'll have lost value, kept the pot small, and given a free card to three other players OOP.

If you've seen V attack donks in the past, I'd consider leading out 20. If he hasn't or you're not sure, I'd make it 35, hoping to get calls from the many draws out there. When in doubt, I tend to default to betting when I'm probably ahead. Given the draws, we could consider betting out up to about the pot.

We need to keep an eye on commitment. We're at least conditionally committed (blank runouts or if we boat up), but there are plenty of situations that are going to require re-evaluation.

+1 for x/r

H checks, limpers check, V bets ~$35-40, H raises to ~100-120

The more I think about it, the more I think x/r is distinctly less good.

I doubt chatty, passive, drinking recs are leading out with a draw. I doubt they're leading out with a K into the preflop raiser either. But I think they'll call our bet with those hands.

If V is a LAG, he probably doesn't have a K. You can't be "loose" and usually have a K here. If he's good, he should understand that this is a terrible situation for a cbet. We're going to see this checked around a lot.

If V does have a K, and we x/r, he's going to start eyeing the exits unless we have a history of frequent x/r with draws (in which case, note that he's less likely to lead out). Reads aren't clear: if we've been running over the table with un-showndown hands, maybe we're viewed as a LAG. If we've been showing down good hands (like flopped boats), we're probably not so much getting that image.

If V does bet and we x/r, the loose chatty types are going to start finding some of those "too rich for my blood" folds. But we want them in. Sometimes they're going to suck out. But sometimes they're going to pay of our boat for a big, fat pot.

What's our plan for the turn after the x/r? Lead out? Do we really think the good LAG is going to call our x/r and then call our turn bet? He might call the x/r thinking we're on a big semi-bluff, but is he going to credit us for that when we lead OTT?

I think leading out is more deceptive, denies the LAG information, and allows loose, passive recs to do what they like to do: call. If V does have a K, he's going to at least call. He might raise either with a K or with a decent draw, at which point we can 3b. If he folds to that, at least he'll have done it after putting more money in the pot.

IMO, we should have a definite reason to x/r. If the flop were drier or had fewer people, I could see it to capture an additional bet from V's whiffs. But this isn't a good situation for that. I think we need to play for the hope that he has a hand he's willing to lose some chips with. In that case, b, b, eval is less threatening than x/r, bet. We want him to be in doubt about his hand for as long as possible.

Yeah I'm about as confident as I can be that he is c betting here. He had been abusing the limpers a lot. That being said, c/r is usually best, no?

I would go for the check raise. And my raise would definitely be an overbet. This is not the flop to play games on.

3bet pre.

Lead now

I would lead out here.

The board is coordinated with a King out, so there are plenty of worse hands that will call. We don't want this flop to check through with so many draws available, but this being a multiway pot and the presence of two fishy players in the hand makes it more likely that Villain plays in a straight-forward manner. We can't rely on him to c-bet if it checks around here, so we should bet out and hope one or two of the fish call.

I'm more inclined to default leading out in this particular case.

Arguments for cbetting:
* You feel PFR is likely to cbet. That's fair enough, but if he does lead out with air here, I don't think he's a good LAG. This flop just hits preflop callers' ranges too hard to try to move three people off their hands. Being a good LAG is all about applying pressure when it's likely to work, not about clicking bet at every opportunity. If he's only leading out with an actual hand, he's mostly checking it back. (I gave V a ~26% raising range preflop. If he'll cbet with TP+ or any 7+ out draw (e.g. GS+pair), he's leading out ~35% of the time.)

* If V has a big hand (K8s, K9s, 88, or a big draw), he may get it all in with us OTF after our x/r, and that's clearly profitable.

However, x/r is likely to let the other two loose, chatty V's play correctly. We make money by exploiting bad players bad habits. In this case, we're declining to do that in order to exploit the good LAG. But the good LAG is -- by definition -- harder to exploit than the bad players. If he's not easier to exploit, he can't be good.

I like leading out here much more.

* I think it disguises the hand to some extent (as this thread shows, lots of people really like the x/r with a flopped big hand, and will therefore tend to expect it).

* The loose chatty types can do what they came to do: call.

* The good LAG might well misinterpret our lead and come over the top with his big hands or big draws, since *that* move shows much more strength than just cbetting and might well get folds and set up a good turn barrel (though it's hard to know which turn cards are going to be good barreling ones).

* We avoid having the flop check through and a Q, J, T, spade, or 7 roll off, any one of which could either have us behind or force us to play defense for the rest of the hand.

Mostly, I don't think the x/r gets more money in the pot than leading out (because of the loose chatty types), and it reveals our hand strength much more.

If the flop were dry, or we were HU, and especially both, I'd be much more inclined to x/r. There, the good LAG is going to cbet a very high percentage of the time, mostly with nothing (or the unlikely times he has a big hand and also wants to build a big pot). We're unlikely to get any value from his second best hands, so let's x/r and exploit his cbetting. Ironically, if he checked it back, I'd be very happy, since I expect he'd mostly only check back with decent hands that he wants to pot control and get to showdown. Then our mission becomes to figure out how much we can lead on the turn and river to not quite get him to fold.

I think a lead out bet is OK too. It usually screams weak, especially to a good player like villain.

-If you bet and the other two players fold, then villain has position in a what is now a heads up pot with you, and you've shown you may not have a strong hand. He could very well raise with air here, and he'll certainly raise if he has a good piece, which is great for you. If any one of the three behind has a flush draw, they could raise.

-If you bet and one or more of the others calls, that's more money in the pot, which is obviously good.

-What's the worst thing that happens if you bet? Everyone folds, in which case you weren't getting anything out of them anyway.

The c/r is kind of the default move that just anyone in your seat would make, which is fine if you're playing with players who aren't paying attention. Against a good player, though, I think it turns your hand face up. You may not get anything out of him beyond his CB.

I think it also works better if you're heads up, because he's got a much better chance of CBetting. And also he doesn't necessarily read your c/r for being as strong heads up.

If he's a good player, and it's checked to him, either he's going to check behind because of 3 opponents, or he's going to bet and then you're going to C/R and then he's going to know what you have.

The other problem with a x/r here is that we don't want to attack the other good player in the hand. We want to play big pots with the weak players.

If this checks to the Villain, he makes a standard c-bet, and we x/r that cbet it puts a lot of pressure on the two bad players and runs the risk of allowing them to make correct folds with their low-equity holdings.

I think u can make a good case for x/r or lead/3! on this flop. The key question becomes who are we trying to play a big pot with and who is most likely to have a hand they want to go with on this flop? You didn't include the stacks of the "Chatty drinkers" so I am guessing that they either (1) have small stacks or (2) folded to whatever you chose to do.

I personally target the raiser in this spot so my choice would be based on what I expect him to do. If he will auto raise most of his range on this flop, then I definitely lead out. If he is more likely to just flat to see a safe turn, then I might go for a x/r here as he seems like he would c-bet this most of the time. Basically, I want my stack in the middle by the end on pretty much all but the worst run-outs (4 spades or some combo of Q, J, T) turns, so I do whatever I think will accomplish at the time. Given what you have said, I would probably lead in this spot and hope to be able to 3!.

I was a little surprised no one mentioned pre before this. After reviewing the hand I felt like with my history with v a 3b here was mandatory. I would get good action from the rest of the table cuz I had been so active but will look really strong to v cuz he knows I'm 3b strong out of the blinds.

Thanks for all of the comments so far. I thought with my read that v was going to bet would mean c/r was best as he has tons of Asxs, Ksxs in range, but after reading comments I feel I misplayed flop as well.

Moving on.....


Ep chatty drinker limps, mp chatty drinker limps, V otb raise $12, sb fold, H bb 9 9. If I call this pot is going 4 ways to the flop ~always and both limper are $400+ deep. I also don’t want to play oop vs this guy w/ mid pair in 3b pot so I flat. Both limpers call.

Flop: ($45) K 9 8

H check, 2 recs check, V bets 35, H 125, folds to v who tanks 45 sec and calls.

Turn: ($295) K 9 8 A


After the call I range V on AA, all AK combos, 88, maybe KQo but def KsQs, maybe KsJs and considered once in a while KK closing the action (unlikely, but possible). As he was tanking I decided he had very few fds that call my raise and the As kills most of them. Checking didn't seem like an option as another spade is disaster but now AA pulled ahead and AK is probably folding cuz the flush came in.

FWIW V is def including some 1pr+flush, str8+flush combo draws in my c/r range otf as he has seen me in past sessions play them agro otf and blast off on brick turns.

As the turn hit I was watching v and he didn't seem crazy about whatever fell. He then noticed me watching him, looked back at the board, and a few seconds later checked out of turn. The way he reacted after the dealer told him I hadn't acted yet was very genuine, and I was 100% sure this was an actual mistake on his part and not an angle. He claimed he forgot I was first to act ("oh, thought you were first" were the only words he had spoken so far this session) and blushed a little out of embarrassment.

Action is on H ($340 back), who needs an adult.......

As stated the other two vs have $400+ ($400-$500)

My bad

Grunch


Dream spot to lead, hopefully enticing the other limpers to call so LAG V raises when he has Kx, and we get more dead money in the middle. If V doesn't have Kx he isn't c-betting this flop into 4 players (and if he does have Kx he isn't going to call a c/r from us, so all we do is get one street from him).

C/r the flop seems particularly awful here.

I think you have to lead here, especially if you think his out of turn action was genuine. Seems like his range highly consists of AK now (could have AA or KK too, but I discount a bit given his flop tank call and his reaction to turn). I would bet $200 or so and call a shove (which I don't think is coming). He will likely fold unless he has the Ks or a bigger set and really the only hand he can shove is KQ. My guess is you aren't getting much more value from him, but it would be a shame to check and see a 4th spade come.

Read replies now. Our c/r sizing was poor. So now what, we have a little under $350 left and the pot is $295? We should have raised to $150 or so to set up a PSB jam on the turn.

AP, gotta rip it in. Even if his "check behind" was an act, we can't let him draw to a naked spade or get off the hook with AK. You're never folding, so just jam.

well, at least we have 1 out.

the "very good" grinder who opens wide IP, opens the button, is x/raised otf, and now acts confused on the order of play. lol

In what functional way is betting $340 into $295 different from betting $315 into $345? Is it really that egregious to shove for 1.15psb that it makes c/r sizing poor? I agree it was on the low end but still sets up a turn jam just fine and prices out draws. I was thinking smaller sizing to get Kx to peel one more card.

Flatting pre is fine to allow weaker players into the pot, 3bet if not.

Obviously take the free river now you can

We have a smidge more than psb left? Ship it in imo.

I'm fine with preflop but I'm passive like that.

Is Villain really cbetting air enough into 3 opponents? I doubt it. Villain is also good so I'm not really concerned about squeezing some value out of him in this hand at all, I'm just going for value against the limpers. I donk a PSB and hope to get a limper on the hook.

A check also kinda sets ourselves up for a check/raise where we blow out the limpers, again something I'm not really looking to do. But then again at this point I guess we don't want to give them decent odds to draw either. I wouldn't be in this spot but I think I live with the check/raise here, although another part of me might be cool with flatting to bring along some fairly dead money in order to donk a safe turn (but there are a lotta non safe turns too, so it is a risk).

ETA: Would have also check/raised more to setup an easier turn shove. As played, even though turn sucks, I guess we can still be ahead of AK (although honestly sounds like wishful thinking, doesn't a good player typically fold the flop?). But at the same with just a ~PSB left and a set I'm not sure we can fold either. Or can we?

GcluelessNLnoobG