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Old 10-09-2017, 09:46 PM   #1
6bet me
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1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

$1/$3 at the casino on a Monday night. 7-handed.

Villain (HJ) - 60 year old white man. Very tilted because I recently sucked out on him for a big pot. Moderately aggressive and capable of bluffing. Plays almost daily. $300 stack.

Hero (SB) - Early 20s white guy. Running extremely hot today. LAG image. $1800 stack.

Hero is dealt 8c 8s
1 limper
Villain makes it $15
Hero 3bets to $55
Villain calls

Flop ($106, HU) is Jd 5d 3s

Hero bets $35
Villain instantly announces "call"

Turn ($172, HU) is 5c

Hero checks
Villain spends 15 seconds counting out red chips before betting $70
Hero jams $210 effective

What do you think about this play? Would you have done anything differently?
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Old 10-09-2017, 10:50 PM   #2
flopturntree
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

I don't like it. Not a fan of the 3b pre out of SB with 88.

Post-flop is spew

As played, you're bluffing it may or may not work but against a tilted V that you just sucked out on I'd advise against it. Theres no draws out on board really and V has half his stack in the middle already? Surely hes not folding and you don't beat anything..
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Old 10-10-2017, 12:47 AM   #3
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

I'm not 3betting 88 OOP when I know I'm going to get a call from a guy I just sucked out on. Odds of me getting a set 0.108. Odds of overs on the flop, 0.778. Post flop FE vs tilted guy, ~0. Post flop SPR<5.
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Old 10-10-2017, 12:57 AM   #4
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

The 3bet pre was for value. I expected villain to call with weaker hands like 22, 76s, JTo, etc. I don't think I can profitably set mine OOP here, so I'd rather 3bet or fold.

The flop bet was intentionally small as it's such a dry flop. I want to deny equity from overcards, but I'm not looking to really get any huge value here.

The snap call on the flop looks a bit weak. I expected villain to tank for a few seconds with TPTK+. Villain can definitely still have some Jx hands here, but he can also have floats like Ax and Kx hands, as well as FDs and weaker pairs like 44.

The turn x/r was actually for value against FDs and weaker pairs, as well as equity denial against overcards like AQ or QTs. It's not a bluff.
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:15 AM   #5
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

So you think you have the best hand after you 3bet pre he calls, bet flop he calls, then he bets into you on turn?

What do you think he has on flop after he calls thats weak? A J with bad kicker? 5X just got there. Weak and complete air or backdoor draws are completely different and if that was the case you should have bet again on the turn or just check called and gave him another chance to bet again on the river

By check jam turn V is never calling with anything you beat besides flush draws that still have good equity, he will snap you off with any 5 and probably calling a decent amount of the time with JX considering he has so much of his stack already in the pot, so its spew and you are bluffing without knowing that you bluffed lol

Last edited by flopturntree; 10-10-2017 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:51 AM   #6
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumSurfer View Post
I'm not 3betting 88 OOP when I know I'm going to get a call from a guy I just sucked out on. Odds of me getting a set 0.108. Odds of overs on the flop, 0.778. Post flop FE vs tilted guy, ~0. Post flop SPR<5.
Odds of overs to 88 is incorrect.
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:52 AM   #7
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

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Odds of overs to 88 is incorrect.
My bad, it's even worse... .867
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:02 AM   #8
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

Pre is defiantly not enough. Make it close to 100 if you're gonna try and induce this guy to shove.
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Old 10-10-2017, 03:55 AM   #9
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by flopturntree View Post
So you think you have the best hand after you 3bet pre he calls, bet flop he calls, then he bets into you on turn?

What do you think he has on flop after he calls thats weak? A J with bad kicker? 5X just got there. Weak and complete air or backdoor draws are completely different and if that was the case you should have bet again on the turn or just check called and gave him another chance to bet again on the river
By check jam turn V is never calling with anything you beat besides flush draws that still have good equity, he will snap you off with any 5 and probably calling a decent amount of the time with JX considering he has so much of his stack already in the pot, so its spew and you are bluffing without knowing that you bluffed lol
1) The whole point of denying equity is that I don't think villain is going to bluff the river enough if I call turn, so this is the most value I expect from overcards. The best thing I can do, if that assumption is true, is to x/jam turn and win the pot outright, rather than flatting the turn and only winning 88% of the pot (since his overcards have 6 outs or 12% equity).

2) I can get value off FDs and weaker pockets which probably check back the river if they miss.

3) I expect a lot of overcards and A high type hands to show up in villain's range, given 3 pieces of information:
i) Tilted people like to "make a stand" and float more.
ii) The 30% pot Cbet tends to induce floats and spazzes at a much higher frequency than a 70% pot Cbet would.
iii) I had a live read when villain snap called the turn that he most likely wasn't that strong.
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Old 10-10-2017, 06:38 AM   #10
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

OP, did you make a thread to justify your action, prove you are smarter than everyone else, or were actually looking for guidance?

People are telling you it was spew. Mainly because it is spew. Either post the results to prove your point, or stop arguing with everyone that they are wrong.
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:26 AM   #11
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

OP, stop trying to out-spew a tilted player. It's not going to be successful.
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:24 AM   #12
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

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OP, did you make a thread to justify your action, prove you are smarter than everyone else, or were actually looking for guidance?

People are telling you it was spew. Mainly because it is spew. Either post the results to prove your point, or stop arguing with everyone that they are wrong.
I just can't respect people who say that my play is complete spew. Perhaps my play was suboptimal, and you are welcome to tell me that my play is suboptimal, but I really doubt it was complete spew.

If you give me some respect and say "I see what you're trying to do here but I disagree with this action, for these reasons", then I can respect that advice, but when you treat me like a spewtard when I'm actually a winning player at $1/$3, then to me, it looks like you're the ignorant player that simply doesn't understand my play.

You know who else thinks I'm a spewtard? All the OMC's at the casino. In their eyes, anyone who bluffs, bluff catches or thin value bets is a spewy young kid. They could watch the $25/$50 online players and the OMC's would have the audacity to criticise and laugh at the online regs, simply because they're so stuck in their ways that they fail to comprehend a style of play that is new to them.

To me, it feels like 90% of the 2p2 players are stuck in 2007 mode. All the advice they give is 2007 stuff like "lol you can beat 25nl without bluffing, just value bet and you'll crush them for 40bb/100". They don't understand concepts like betting 30% pot on dry flops. And rather than simply asking "why did you bet so small here?" they just straight up say "you played so spewy" like the response I'd expect from an 80 year old man.

I'll post results later but honestly, results don't even matter that much because I'm not results-oriented. I like to look at villain's entire range, rather than looking at the hand that the villain happened to show up with on this specific occasion.
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Old 10-10-2017, 10:11 AM   #13
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
The 3bet pre was for value. I expected villain to call with weaker hands like 22, 76s, JTo, etc. I don't think I can profitably set mine OOP here, so I'd rather 3bet or fold.
Is he opening from the HJ over a limper with these hands? This seems like a wide range for a moderately aggressive old man, even if he's tilted. Even if so, it's still really thin value; 88 is not noticeably ahead of a range with those hands at the bottom. We're also OOP and he's not folding better postflop very often when we don't flop a set. So, just starting off, it's not clear to me what the plan is postflop or why this is better than flatting.

Flop bet is fine as played.

Turn looks like FPS to me. 88 is only slightly ahead of his entire preflop range on this board. Realistically, what does his range look like now after taking this line? Even if live reads make AJ+ on the flop unlikely, he has enough Jx that we still need most of his air to make it this far for this to be profitable, and that's just wish-ranging.
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:20 AM   #14
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

What are you putting him on here? Air? I don't think you can get AJ or KJ to fold here. Basically your only hope is that he has a diamond draw.
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:29 AM   #15
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

The hand is well played until the turn, on which, i think you can make a very tight x/f or a meh x/c and fold all rivers. Would x/c a ton of other turns.

I understand what you are getting at for your turn action but Im not sure its best. Hard to put into words. I think your line would be much better with TT on J565dd for example.
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:06 PM   #16
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

6bet I'm not going to try to help you anymore.

If your so sure that you X/R on turn was good then why post the thread?

Let me tell that you played this hand terribly and X/R all-in on this turn is a losing play and its not even close

Your wrong and your play was spew and again you bluffed without knowing that you're bluffing which is a huge problem.

If you shove over his bet on the turn to "deny equity" from his overcards then you are a losing player because any V in this spot that isn't retarded has value hands that beat you much more often. You are implying that V called your 3bet pre, called your flop bet and bet into you on turn with two overcards aka complete air? Or do you think V has Jx or 5x or flush draw more often? The answer is very obvious

And sure V probably folded or called you with AK or something dumb but if you do this in my 5/10 game you will lose all your money.

GL

Last edited by flopturntree; 10-10-2017 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 10-10-2017, 08:48 PM   #17
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by flopturntree View Post
6bet I'm not going to try to help you anymore.

If your so sure that you X/R on turn was good then why post the thread?

Let me tell that you played this hand terribly and X/R all-in on this turn is a losing play and its not even close

Your wrong and your play was spew and again you bluffed without knowing that you're bluffing which is a huge problem.

If you shove over his bet on the turn to "deny equity" from his overcards then you are a losing player because any V in this spot that isn't retarded has value hands that beat you much more often. You are implying that V called your 3bet pre, called your flop bet and bet into you on turn with two overcards aka complete air? Or do you think V has Jx or 5x or flush draw more often? The answer is very obvious

And sure V probably folded or called you with AK or something dumb but if you do this in my 5/10 game you will lose all your money.

GL
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:51 AM   #18
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

So you guys completely reject the idea that a tilted reg will float a 30% flop Cbet with 2 overcards then bet the turn when checked to? You don't think that that's even possible at all?
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:10 AM   #19
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

Yes but if thats the case that you have some sick read that he has two overs/complete air the best play would just be to flat call and let him bluff again on the river.

Your turn raise all-in is lighting money on fire because he will only call you with hands you are drawing to two outs or a flush draw that still have great equity against your exact hand

Last edited by flopturntree; 10-11-2017 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:18 AM   #20
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

If you're tilted fish stomping and you get dealt a pair then pile pre pile flop stuff turn.

All your line accomplishes is maximizing against a small corner of his range.
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:25 AM   #21
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by flopturntree View Post
Yes but if thats the case why don't you just call and let him bluff again on the river like I said earlier? If you shove on turn hes only calling you with better whats so hard to understand about that?
Because as I explained earlier, I don't expect him to bluff river very often if he misses. So the question is basically: do I want to allow him to realise his 12% equity (or 30% if he had a FD), or do I want to jam now and take 100% of the pot?
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:33 AM   #22
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

You are making too many assumptions and most of the time V should have you beat..

So what were the results of the hand?
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:19 AM   #23
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

Results:

Spoiler:
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:26 AM   #24
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

Great job
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:36 PM   #25
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Re: 1/3 - Middle pair against a tilted reg in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by cicakman View Post
Pre is defiantly not enough. Make it close to 100 if you're gonna try and induce this guy to shove.
it's also definitely not enough
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