Hero has K10 of spades in MP (850 eff)

Hero opens to 15
Villain (900 eff) raises to 35 on BTN
Folds to hero who calls ($74)

-Villain was in his mid twenties with headphones on. I had not seen him show down any hands.
-Hero is early twenties. Fun table and I had been drinking but straightforward tight aggressive.

Flop: AsQd8d
Hero checks, villain bets $50 and hero calls ($174)

-I don’t love this call but we both had decent stacks and backdoor flush draw.

Turn: Jd
Hero checks, villain bets $175 and hero calls ($475)

-Would he take this sizing with a flush?

River: 9h

Hero checks, villain goes all in and hero tank folds.

My thoughts:

How many Ad combos is he 3-betting?

I asked him about it later and he said he had a set, which I just don't believe. Unless he turned AA with a diamond into a bluff?

His bet was pretty polarizing and I feel like I have a lot of flush combos there too?

For me it just came down to the fact that many people don't make this play without the nuts at 1/3.

Overall tough spot but would love to hear your thoughts!

You're drawing to either a marginal pair with a good kicker or a good pair with a weak kick pre flop.
Out of position, against a mostly unknown villain (since he hasn't shown down any hands), while drinking.
Fold pre.

On the flop, you're drawing to a hand that even if you hit it, will still sometimes be the worse hand.

Yoire trying to hit a 3 outer (4 if we're generous) but don't want to call when he puts the rest of his money in. Fold flop.

Ok cool. We hit our hand. Call I guess?
The board didnt change, neither did his range much. If we called the turn, we probably have to call the river given the size of the pot and that it's a 3bet so he has far less XXdd hands in his range. Call I guess. Fold prior though.

Edit: Oh also, you might just want to fold pre instead of even raising. You'll be OOP a much of the time and that will be harder to play.

I fold the first time preflop cuz I'm a nit and simply doubt whether this hand is actually profitable for me in this position. If I were to play I think I'd rather just limp in and see what happens, especially since we don't actually hate playing a multiway high SPR pot with this hand. There's also a very good chance no matter what we do that we'll end up OOP, and if I'm going to end up OOP I'd rather be playing a small pot than a large one. And getting 3bet sucks.

Do you think playing in a 3bet OOP with this hand to this opponent is going to be profitable? I don't. So I fold to the preflop 3bet.

I fold the flop. This flop has smashed a typical 3betting range and all we have is gutshot (with one of our outs possibly being dirty and at the very least a possible action killer). Attempting to rep anything and possibly getting him off a hand is going to be pretty difficult OOP.

I probably lean to donking on the turn. There's simply too good a chance he checks behind this scare card. But he could have still easily have smashed this board enough to continue to a bet. As played, I'm kinda hating life when he PSBs the turn to setup a river shove when the most obvious draw comes in. But I guess we didn't call a gutshot on the flop to fold when it hits.

I don't mind considering a fold on the river. By this time there is just so little he can be quadruple barrelling as a bluff; pretty much everything has gotten there in some manner and he often has enough of a piece that he doesn't need to bluff later streets and could just checkdown for showdown value. Although this bet really does just limit him to basically big Axdd flush hands as I kinda doubt even hands as strong as AA shove this 3flush/4straight river.

GstopplayingbloatedpotsOOPwithmarginalhandsagainst opponentsyoulikelyconsidertough,imoG

Lol, at folding pre to basically a minraise with suited broadways 300 blinds deep. Never folding anything here to this ridicilous sizing, except maybe some hands from the bottom of my opening range from MP like KJ off or A10 off.

On the flop though i think its ambitious to continue,even though we flop a gutter to the stones. It smashes the 3 bettor and its gonna be real hard to win this pot on later streets unless we simply hit our hand.

Check-shove turn is a pretty boss line here with this hand. We are OOP and we would hate both another diamond or the board pairing. At the same time we have a very strong valuehand, especially relative to the 3 bettors range.

I would ship this on the turn. Get that value now, and make him pay if he wants to pair the board or bink another diamond.

So this is my take on this situation. Let's say you and I are watching this game and simply wagering on the outcome. We'll assume for the moment that we think both players are of equal skill (although this is certainly debatable given OP's postflop line which makes this an even more slam dunk fold). Dude1 3bets with unknown cards in position, and is called OOP by Dude2 with KTs. Being that it's a raked game and the blinds that they've collectively stolen don't make up for the rake, it's impossible for both of these players to be in a longterm profitable situation (and if the rake were large enough it could even still be possible that neither of these players are in a longterm profitable situation). And now let's say we get to play out this simulation a million times, and now we simply wager on which one of these two we think is most likely to be profitable at the end of all those simulations. You're taking the guy OOP with no initiative just cuz pot odds / KTs? I'm not.

Gyahornah?G

Except i am not playing just K10s in this spot: i am playing my whole range.This is what you and many other posters simply cant manage to wrap your head around. Its not _one_ hand combo in a vacuum: its a whole range that makes you hard to play against and what makes you profit in the long run if you do it correctly. It plays out on so many parameters.

To this sizing i am defending most of my opens as i said, and i think i will profit with my range doing so deepstacked. I am not just calling to bink the nutz everytime, i am going to war on many types of flops-espcially if i have a good grasp of my opponents (often) faceup 3 bet range.

And our equal skill opponent isn't doing the same (with regards to playing a range and not necessarily just the single hand he happened to have 3bet here)? Except he gets to do all of this in position and with initiative.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I dont agree that a random 1/3 opponent is equal skill level to neither me or another 2+2 player that puts some work into their game. So your premise isnt valid, at least not in my book.

Obviously i would prefer to be in position if i could have it perfect. But i cant have it perfect everytime, and have to do the best with what i have to work with. The situation is that i have been 3 bet with a lol sizing that my overall strategy is to defend alot against. And i am confident that is gonna be +EV, at least for me with my experience. If my oppponent wants to play a big pot, i am usually fine with it- as long as i dont have to stretch it too far when it comes to playable hand combos/stacks.

It doesent matter that my opponent also plays his whole range, you are missing the point (as nearly always) in order to defend your ubernit approach to every hand. His range is most of the time gonna be worse constructed than mine, and also alot more faceup than mine as extremely few villains at 1/3 knows how to construct a proper overall 3 bet range and executing it regurarly in games. And if he knew how to do that, he surely woudnt be using this lol minraise sizing.

Readless, out of position, probably with a actual hand, and range disadvantage? Congrats, you're better than most world class pros.

And then the mods that never even plays poker anymore comes out of the woods with strawman arguments. Shock that this forum have been heading downwards for a long freaking time and so many good posters that grinds regurarly have quit posting.

How often do you play live poker again? Like once every 6 months or something?

Your stance is that many pro will willing play pots readless, out of position, probably with a actual hand, and range disadvantage?

And they think they are +EV when doing it?

In the end, experts can obviously do whatever they want, and I'm sure they'll do just fine.

Gil, I'm fairly sure you and I are in agreement that OP (based on his postflop play) ain't an expert. If that's the case, he is likely much better off open folding KTs in MP (let alone even thinking about calling a 3bet OOP).

Gplayingwith(in)myselfG

Sure, we can agree on that. On the other hand, you dont get better or closer to "expert" level as you say it if you dont put yourself into some challenging spots and thus develope your game over time.

Its like the first time you 3 bet QQ OOP 400 BB deep and gets outplayed by the grinder in position on 5-6-7 flop, and you start to realize what just happend. And most importantly _why_ it did happen.

It’s hard to believe that calling the $20 into $54 closing the action heads up isn’t solid +EV overall. I don’t know H’s ability or V’s ability but I’m confident I would be (and many others here would be) money ahead by playing this hand.

Calling river as played, folding flop - would be more open to peeling for a smaller amount.

@ twitch

So far all we know about villain is that he's in his mid twenties, has headphones on, hasn't shown down a single hand, and just 3bet us in position (albeit a rather small 3bet). Based on this sole evidence overall, where does everyone guess he lands on the fish-o-meter?

And I touch on it up above, but let's approach this from the Villain's perspective. He just isolated someone with a 3bet in position. Could he be excused for thinking he's in a pretty solid +EV spot overall too? And yet, one of these two players is wrong.

Gvillain'swrong,amirite?G

I think even if you just wanted to play fit or fold post it’s still a decent spot.

But to answer your question directly - he’s on the fish scale based on the EV he already lost by not sizing his 3b properly. Listen, I agree KTss isn’t a great hand, but I have basically no b/f range if you min 3b me.

Absolutely do not fold pre with anything you thought was good enough to open at this stack depth vs this sizing.

Your advocating folding KTs to a min raise. That advice is so horrible I cant believe I'm reading it from someone with a jillion posts.

What the literal #!!# are you talking about? KTs is a profitable call vrs a min raise against anyone, as in if you call you make money.

Its not impossible for the IP 3 bettor to have made a profitable raise (although it is certain that he minimized profitability of his strong holdings with the min raise), and the OOP player having a profitable call with KTs.

What is absolutely certain is that if you do not open KTs, and you do not continue with it vrs a min raise, you are losing EV and will lose unless your opponents are complete rubes.

Unless you're very confident in post flop play, fold to the 3-B.

Non-ace suited gap broadways are low on the list of profitable calls, especially OOP. At best, maybe 5% of our range is a call vs a 3B at $1/$3 live.

If calling, folding flop with dirty outs on the horizon.

As played, get a live read, though I lean toward a call given his PSB on turn.

Our ranges should shift quite a bit based on the sizing that V chooses.

Lol, wut, in the sense of meaningless immediate odds? Yeah, if everyone agreed to check down the hand afterwards this would be true. But we have to play the rest of the hand with big stacks behind, OOP, without initiative, and from the looks of things (at least with regards to OP, this won't apply to experts) a skill disadvantage.

GcluelessIO/RIOnoobG

This has been a fun read to see how nitty people really are. So when I put in my session later I think I'm going to 3b 80% from CO and 60% from button to add to my current win rate since many are advocating to fold suited broadway to a smallish 3b.

These are reasons I still play poker after 24 years!