$1/3. H#1 V seems like a loose/splashy regular-type, not much history but likely on the stabby/aggressive side. H#2 V is a semi-competent TAG who's foundation is bet/folding, but have seen him semi-hero an overpair at least once vs heavy flop aggression. I'm playing pretty tight/nitty, my usual image.

It's not often I get led in to on the turn, so I go back & forth on whether to raise these spots immediately (+EV obviously, but sometimes blowing villain off a TP-type hand or pair+FD looking for information), or call & give villain a chance to make more mistakes on the river (w/ combo draws that miss, by overplaying a strong made hand, weak pairs they might bluff catch with, etc.). Versus guys who seem at least semi-thinking, my general approach is to usually flat/deny information with big hands until the river, and playing fast versus guys I know won't/can't fold. Though obviously this ruins some opportunities to get stacks in on river if villain opts to check/call, check/fold, etc.

Thanks for any/all thoughts on the subject + overall line(s).

H#1:

JTo CO ($450)

Fold x 4, MP limps $3, V limps $3, H R$20, fold x 4, V C$20

TT8r ($47)

V x, H b$30, V c$30

Jx ($107)

V b$65, H c$65

9x ($237)

V x, H b$120

H#2:

66 UTG ($400)

H r$12, fold x 6, V c$12, fold

A94sxx ($27)

V x, H b$20, V c$20

6s ($57)

B$40 C$40

5s ($137)

V b$45, H r$100

Raise turn in both

Without reading the HHs yet, I will say that in general I typically treat a turn donk with respect and am likely only leaning to raising if I have a monster myself (and mostly leaning towards folding mediocre hands, although obviously situation dependent).

H#1

I would typically overlimp here but if we think we can get it HU in position with initiative with non short stacks, then I'm fine with the raise.

Cool with our flop bet.

I lean towards a raise on the turn. Again, for the most part I treat turn donks with respect, which means there's a decent chance he actually has a hand that isn't folding. So let's pump it up now, keeping in mind there are a decent amount of scare cards that put 4-to-a-straight / double pair the board (possibly flush?) which will kill the action. We're also looking to play for stacks, and that will be difficult to do flatting to create a $237 pot with $335 left.

River is one of the reasons I raise the turn as this could kill our action against some hands. I probably still go for the gusto and shove and just hope he can't get away from a straight / played a lower full house weirdly.


H#2:

You and I play in completely different 1/3 NL games if a raise to $12 UTG somehow manages to get this HU and in position. I would fold preflop in my game.

I don't think there is any reason to bet so cbet so much, I'd probably go no more than $15 and see if that gets the fold we're looking for.

Turn is the same in the other hand except that there aren't any scare cards. I think I flat with hands that are looking to get to showdown but not build a big pot (such as AK), and perhaps even think of folding the weaker TP hands. Again, I usually treat turn donks after this preflop/flop action with respect, so with big hands I want to play for bigger stacks and raise. If we run into 99, that's what we get for raising preflop.

I'm also raising the river, although I probably go a bit bigger.

Gwelostvalueinbothhands,imoG

^^^
Yeah, turn/river leads are quite strong generally, so I shouldn't fear losing either player really, but I do often times play super tight relative to the table, and feel turning on the aggression on late streets will fold out some pretty strong hands if players are semi thinking. I could be wrong.

H#1, not much to say, pretty much agree. With the line I thought an overbet jam is certainly viable on river, but my brain just sort of short circuited & went into get whatever you can get now mode.

H#2, 5x open is my norm, but this table was playing weak/nitty/reggish & smaller opens seemed a proper adjustment overall. Maybe incorrect. *Shrug*

River the 3rd spade came in. Still prefer going to 150ish? Figured making it that big vs a blocker sizing was going to get too many folds, so just basically clicked for ~ 1/3 stack planning to fold.

Thanks for the reply.

Whoops, I didn't notice the backdoor flush get there. Yeah, more reason for smaller sizing to get paid off by worse.

GcluelessNLnoobG

H1: raise turn

H2: bet 15 OTF or check. I prefer checking. Raise turn. Call river

/thread

^^^
Seems to be the consensus. Makes sense. I appreciate everyone's input.

I would flat turn in H1 to let other draws potentially come in OTR as you have the board crushed. Deffo raise turn in H2.

Its a HU pot.

So? V cannot have a draw on that board as any part of his/her range?

I like how you played H1- maybe a slightly larger size bet on the flop? obvioulsy dont over bet to scare them off, but maybe more value? I agree with other replies that I only raise a lead on the turn when I have a monster or am already committed to a bluff. I do believe there is an argument for a larger river bet as well. In my eyes the hand was played optimally.

H2- Not how i would personally play it, but I dont see anything wrong with the line. I am not a pro, but here are my thoughts: I feel like this is a limp/call preflop- getting 3-bet would not be fun with pocket 66's. The board is pretty dry here so I like the lead. On the turn, did V check or lead? I am having trouble interpreting that line-

If he leads, then I would flat call, if he checked I think this was correct. The river is tricky, as there is now the likely hood that he had the Axs/Kxs to complete the flush and was simply floating on a small pair he hit on the flop. As played, I almost expect a shove from him which I imagine you call. For this hand I think I either flat call or shove into him on the river, if he has the low flush and you flat call, you save a bunch of money. If you shove into his river bet, it might push him off the low flush and make him think you have the nuts.

Well played,

Yeah, this was definitely a part of my decision to flat in that hand, right or wrong.

It can't be wrong even if a draw is a very small portion of V's range. Why not let it get there too since you are never folding no matter what.

H#2 he led the turn, & my river play was a raise/fold line, as villain can't be sure I don't have the flush either.

Will villain fold a draw to a minraise getting great odds? If not, raising is better when he has a draw.

GcluelessNLnoobG

They can and we can get value from that range. Turn lead looks like QJ/J9 so why wouldn’t we raise and get some value?

my general rule towards donkbets is

1) raise to bluff
2) call for value

unless the board is super wet then I

3) raise for value
3) fold

This is largely based on the presumption their donkbets = weak hand

Because you risk losing V and his draw on this street whereas if we let it come in, we may get his stack. Raising on a paired board will make many draws afraid that if they get there they still may lose and therefore it isn't worth it. Plus we are IP too so we get to decide what to do on the river after all the cards are out and we have seen V's action. I just think we don't lose any value by waiting in this specific spot.

I agree with alot here, but my experience @ 1/2 1/3 is turn donks are usually two pair, slow played set, TPGK, turned combo draws, etc. Not quite as weak as a flop donk. Yeah some of that range is weak enough to warrant a TP call down or a semibluff shove, but rarely is someone repping a range adv card, blocking with a normal FD/SD, etc. so I think.i was overly paranoid here about losing my man on what are semi wet boards -- though I still think shorn makes other good points in defense of a call.

Thanks.

Villains head in H 1

"He wouldn't bet the flop if he had a 10. I'm going to bet here and get him to fold AK"

Make a small raise here to keep draws and KJ type hands in. If he has a 10 or a set money will get in regardless.

Hand #2

Raise here as well. Hopefully he has AK or A9