How do you quote me as saying "worst possible flop" when I said "worst possible high card flop" and the quote was literally right in front of you?

Who said we were betting for protection Spex? We're raising for fat fat value PF and to narrow the field so that we actually win the hand more often than 1 time in 5.

You also have way too narrow a view of how often LLSNL go to war with a pocket pair, particularly a mid pair. Vs LOVE to put the PFR on AK. We're the one who has to hit, not them, so we should be the one ensuring we get to see all 5 cards instead of c/f when we whiff on the first 3.

Stop trolling and talk about the hand please. you know what you said, you know what I said, if there are a few letters difference, it should still be obvious what I was asking you.

Raising to $140 over $20 is not a value play. C'mon.

If the flop is J 9 3 with one spade, and a villain wants to "put us on AK" in a many-way pot, and a villain wants to commit with 77, I'm ok with that. the pot is big enough, and we have plenty of equity when called.

If we do get TONS of callers, then the SPR will be so low that check-folding would never enter my mind. Would still see all five cards.

If we only get one or two callers and stacks are still deep enough, I'm bet/folding, not check/folding. Against one or two villains with hands that flatted and re-flatted pre-flop, I don't expect to be folding very much.

EDIT: The above only relates to the times we miss. We're going to clobber this flop some 35+% of the time too. If we're only putting in 12-20% of the money preflop......we're doing fine.

LOL there is a huge difference between what you incorrectly quoted me as saying and what I actually said. Vs love to play hands with Ts and that are close to Ts making them the worst high card flop to cbet. What should have been obvious is that I was not talking about the worst possible flop without knowing the other two cards, obvious because it would have been ridiculous, and because it wasn't what I said.

Great you caught me in a slight mistake over semantics. How much money did you win?

If you want to debate whether a T high flop is worse than a Q high flop, or a 8 high flop, go ahead and do it with someone else. You're obviously here to troll. Talk about the hand. If you want to antagonize me, do it at the poker table. PM me and I'll le tyou know where to find me

It's great to see there's still money in poker

On a more focused note: OP, disregard pretty much everything (okay, literally everything) SpexDome is saying. Others have given pretty good advice for this spot. Your 3b size is fine, if not a tad small. And calling the all ins is incredibly standard. Once the straddle is in effect, your stack isn't as deep as it seems. Effective stacks are $500 with a $6 straddle which equates to roughly 83bb.

SpexDome, my goal is not to derail, nor is it to attack you but your thought process is markedly flawed. The line you are advocating allows every one of the Vs to call profitably preflop. That's speaking in terms of direct pot odds, not SPR or implied odds. You're also going to guarantee a huge multiway pot while being OOP and with no clue as to which boards are good for your hand/terrible for your hand. Take a step back, breathe deeply, and consider the possibility that you may be looking at this in a flawed way.

I was thinking the same thing.

I'm definitely in the top 10% of LLSNL players, at least in the northeast, so it doesn't surprise met hat 90% of folks disagree with me. That's life at the top.

No one has odds to call off $40 pre-flop, no freaking way. Even at 5-1, it's a gigantic mistake to play QT, 87, and AJ with an SPR that will be super low. And if you don't like $60, make it $75...whatever. But you WANT calls from the worse hands.

I don't know anyone who makes money playing poker by offering their opponents the opportunity to play perfectly.

Also, everything you are saying is 100% dependent on the idea that we will not get 4-bet shoved. I think that's an enormously likely scenario. You said yourself that getting it in against the shove is correct, so how would it not be correct if there was MORE dead money in the pot?

So are most of the experienced people who post in this forum.


See the above comment for the reason for this.

Spexdome - if hero was button I'd maybe call and look to stack someone(s) with the nuts postflop. OOP vs everyone at the table I am more than happy taking the dead money preflop or going HU to the flop in a low SPR pot.

I do agree with you that a lot of recreational 1/2 players won't think about the raise compared to pot size so a smaller raise may well still get a few folds. Danger is there are so many live players 3 could fold before a call that the 3 behind feels "prices them in".

There is huge danger of this pot going very multiway and AK OOP multiway isn't great. I hate AA OOP multiway!

It's ok to agree to disagree. No need to puff chests. Keep the thread on track please.

Also I agree that it would be nice to put in a small reraise, get some calls then a shove from a deepstack. That's not super likely though - except in hindsight.

I wouldn't straddle.

I'm definitely 3betting preflop with this huge dead money in the pot. The sizing would probably depend on any other big stacks in the game, but overall I'm cool with just putting V1 all-in; if V2 is the only caller, we'll have a < PSB to shove in on any flop to maximize our FE.

Next time do the math for us (i.e. what is in the pot and what are we being asked to call?), but I'm fairly certain that even if V2 flipped over QQ (which we are almost 50/50 with) we'd easily be getting the odds to snap call here. If he overcalled a zillion callers with AA/KK setting the tarp, nice hand sir.

ETA: Regarding the idea of 3betting small to induce a reraise where we can then shove, I have 2 thoughts. One, if V1 (or someone else) doesn't reopen the betting, then I'm not in love with the result. Two, someone should do an EV calc of taking down however much money is in the pot now risk free vs going to a flop eleventeen ways (and also taking down our share of pots, but also losing our stack a decent amount of the time too). My *guess* is that it is more profitable to take down $146 risk free (or get it HU with V1 for stacks + dead money), but that's just a guess (especially since I'm assuming the EV calc of going eleventeen ways to the flop will be a very difficult one to solve).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Wrong

It is when there's already $146 in the pot before we act.

I'm at an airport right now and don't have access to a good odds calculator. But pokernews.com is reporting that against 10 players, AKs has 20% equity. Against 5, it has 30%.

I'd say that's probably pretty close to reality. sure the site is assuming that villain's hands are random, but it's also assuming that AA and KK are still in villain's ranges, which is wildly unlikely given the action.

If we go to the flop with 25+% equity against 3 or more opponents, that's a +EV result. 25% of a pot close to $1000 is SURELY more +EV than winning $146 "risk free"

bunch a nits in here.

If you believe this, you will never ever get better at poker. Every word that you read here and swallow whole is making you worse.

Good luck.

But this is assuming we get it all-in vs everyone preflop, which is a lot different than getting the rest of it all-in postflop (where, unlike preflop, the only hands that are calling are ones that are beating us / doing ok against us).

I'm still guessing taking this down preflop is more profitable, but only an EV calc of the alternative will show us the truth (but I don't think it's going to be easy to do).

GkingofthenitsG

This will be significantly fewer than eleventeen players. There will also be eleventeen times our 3-bet sitting dead in the pot.

Also, with the lower SPR, I think there are plenty of hands we crush that will get it in post flop. Worse aces or kings that flop top pair along with us, will pay off.

It's also highly likely that we get it all-in vs every pre-flop, which you just admitted, is a fine result.

3-bet size should be just enough to re-open the action if V1 shoves.

Yeah, I was just about to edit my post: I agree, we often do get it in postflop against hands we're crushing (no one is folding a worse TP).

If the 3bet size fails to get a reraise and we see the flop eleventeen ways and whiff, are we simply shoving every flop? Or are we check/folding? The former we get in money pretty bad a lot of the time, but the latter we miss out on the times where we realize our equity on the turn/river.

GcluelessEVcalcnoobG

See bolded: this is a vague and meritless assumption.

It really depends on the pot size, the stacks of the remaining villains, and the actual flop, but yes I'm probably shoving a lot of flops. As I mentioned earlier, if it comes out 789ddd, we can check/fold.

But our over cards are worth some 20+%, a backdoor flush draw is another 3 or 4%, and we'll have one lots of the time, there's a chance villains will simply fold (ex flop is 943r and no one has a set), and a chance we are ahead when villains will call with draws, or smaller overcards+draws.

All of that adds up to something in the neighborhood of 30-40%. With the preflop betting, it's super likely we'll be getting 2, 3 or 4 to 1 on our stack post-flop.

And that's Only when we miss. We're gonna hit 30+% of flops HARD.

We want as much money in there as possible.

Flopping two pair is a 49 to 1 shot. Everything else is fractions of a percent. Multiplied by eleventeen players, there is probably less than 10% chance that someone makes 2 pair+ on the flop. The other 90% of the time we can get busy in a mega +EV spot.

Raising just enough for shorty opener to reopen betting by shoving would be fine if we were sat somewhere a few seats to his left but he acts immediately after us.

Almost whatever we raise his shove is going to shut out most of the other players (as it did) and we aren't able to increase the dead money. We only increase the dead money if we go small enough for shorty opener to call and then enough players behind have to call to make $140 of calls, or whatever opener's stack is...

Also if you are up against hands that are going to flop top pair with you and stack off postflop then your chances of actually hitting are reduced and your chances of beating the pocket pairs inevitably out against you reduce too.

Don't post this stuff unless you can quantify it with facts. You're talking about pennies bro.

I'm not worried about pocket pairs at all. Not one bit. If they are comitting unimproved, they will do so preflop, not AFTER they see an overcard on an eleventeen way flop. We are getting busy on tons of flops, so the players with pairs are just dead money.

Ok, so given this, what's your estimate on what all of this adds up to EV wise?

GandthenwecansimplycompareEVsG