1/3, just sat down at table full of recs, tired of people calling me nitty in other sessions so I decide to play more hands today and limp in 56cc in EP, everyone limps

Flop ($20): Ac 7s 8c
Hero leads $15, 2 players in LP call

Turn ($65): 3d
Hero bets $50, 1 fold, 1 call

River ($165): 4c
Hero ??? (V has $170 behind, Hero covers)

All-in? Bet/fold? Bet/call?

Also, what about flop and turn play? I hate checking flop with such a monster and the big turn bet was a semi-bluff to drive them off their aces/draws and even if they call, I don't mind.

you can't be serious

edit: in case you are, jam

I am. What are you putting V on with that flop and turn call?

what are you putting him on, it's your live poker fish game? this is what a somewhat normal range would like: occasional 8x, a lot of Ax, some two pair/sets, some straights, some flushes, missed str draws. basically a range full of bluffcatchers including a few combos that have you beat. you are almost at the very top of your range and have one pot sized bet left and ask if you can bet/fold a flush here? at a table full of recs. gl mate xx

Obv jam is obv. If you didn't play 56s to get stacks in when you hit after showing aggression with draws, why did you?

You could be overflushed, beat a different straight, beat 2 pair, etc.

^^^ Do LLSNL rec villains call a POT bet for their ENTIRE stack with 2 pairs on a flush board? They'd have raised it earlier being afraid of the FD getting there. Also, there's no SD's in V's range after the turn flat that's calling my river shove.

I'm with Fizzy on this one. Fishy rec V usually shows up with some kind of ace here, often enough to play the bottom of his range. Bet $90 and cross your fingers for a call. If he wasn't likely to call the turn w/o 2 pair+, then I'd jam.

Otherwise,

Pre - fold.

Flop - c/c, why are you OOP trying to push 8 V's out of a pot with an ace on the board? Call if others are likely to call behind you and you get odds for your money.

Turn - you can't call anything too big. That's why you should have folded pre.

Yes, often.
Some V's yes. Many no. As you have given us zero reads, everyone is loose/passive until proven otherwise ime.

There's every other combo of 56 than the one you have.

Bet like 55 or something. Going all in he will fold worse too often

Just some food for thought... if you go for a c/r on the flop you can trap dead money and fold out stuff that has decent equity. In EP I like going for a c/r with hands like yours. And it would be a big c/r. If you get a freecard thats not a bad thing either.

I tend to think people will go away less vs a lead than against a large c/r. A large c/r will get it HU way more often than a lead.

+1

At loose passive table a c/r is risky even without these table dynamics. Bloating the pot with this hand is not smart imo

Also this board is getting calls and no reason to be heads up
This is not a hand we want to bluff or semi bluff if we can avoid it
OOP at these live tables imo

I still think you need to gain a better understanding of how your image affects the profitability of different hands/lines/etc. To oversimplify things: being a nit reduces your IO (especially with a hand that hits baby flushes), and increases your FE. As such, limping 65cc in EP is *less* profitable with your image. Like I said in another of your threads, one of the best ways to leverage your image is to do a lot of iso/squeeze/flat-with-the-intention-of-bluffing-good-flops etc type plays preflop; just playing more hands so you can stop being seen as a nit doesn't accomplish much.

Now, if you were limping 65cc in front of a serial iso'er with the intention of l/rr'ing, then bravo, fine use of your image.

Anyway, flop is a good spot to x/r. I just hate to get in a spot where we get callers IP on us, whose range is chockful of top pair and we don't really know how many streets they're willing to call down with their A-rag, but since we have so much equity we feel obligated to bet away, etc.

As played, turn good; like the large bet.

Now that we hit on the river, *sigh*, refer back to what I said about our image. Being seen as nitty makes it even tougher for us to get fat value from two-pair+, but I also hate to b/c an amount less than a shove because it means that we're paying off better twice as much as worse is paying us (if you follow). I probably just policy shove, but I don't know ...

^^ Maybe my distaste for how river stacks setup should be a statement on how our turn sizing might not be preferable. Might be better to go 1/2 PSB on turn -> post-oak blank rivers (and b/f club rivers), or overbet turn -> check blank rivers (and shove club rivers).

Don't limp. Going from nit to weak/passive really isn't an improvement.

Ap, I'd probably just bet/call about $120 otr. I'd rather get paid and maybe lose a bit of value than chase them away. This pot-commits us, so...

I like the PF limp. Why? It keeps the spr high with a hand that wants it high. The more money behind the more skill will play a big advantage postflop. 2ndly why raise when the pot is going to go 7 ways and you will usually end up oop with a weak hand in a bloated pot where you have to risk more money to steal it and 7 ways you're just not going to steal it. I like seeing the flop cheap with 56s and I think open raising everything is a mistake. Small pairs and hands like 56s are perfect to open limp at a passive loose table.

Gaahh!
In some respects I agree, but 3-4x (regardless of # of limpers previous) is my "limp". If your flop spr isnt high enough with that, you really need to top up.
* When you limp and flop a monster, it's tough getting your stack in without an overbet to the pot. Do you really want to flop a set with only 4bbs in the middle?
* I'd rather keep pressure on my opponents. if they want to just pay the blind and see a flop, they can go play slots.
* Also this chases off the "riff raff and crumb-bumbs" with their 64o and 25s garbage that can. When guys play this garbage, the pot otf is so low that the absolute value of almost any bet will be cheap enough to peel a card, making it very difficult to protect a decent, but vulnerable, flopped hand.
* Lol that your going to steal a limped 7-way flop, but you might steal one 4-way when the flop's scary and you've already shown unbridled aggression with your 3x raise pre (although there's generally so many stations around that I've all but given up on this)
* This keeps you from playing really troublesome speculative hands that will get you in trouble.
* Limping encourages you to "see a flop" with just about ATC, which you'll generally just fold on the flop when you miss (which is most times), which can bleed your stack away (talk about a leak lol)
* You'll make up for the added cost of playing a hand when you consider the savings of not limping the more crappy holdings

The broad, sweeping generalization is that you don't SPR to be high OOP, pretty much regardless of what hand you hold. The players IP control the size of the pot, so unless our skill advantage on the table is to the point that those IP players are going to bet and raise into the pot with a wide and easily dominated range, then we're not going to be able to realize an advantage with a high SPR OOP. This would require specific reads and table conditions that weren't provided by OP, and that go directly against your preferred condition of a "loose passive table."

Now, when we have a hand that can make the nuts, we want IO to be high, but let's not confuse implied odds with SPR. They often overlap in these limp or raise discussions, obviously, but while we want a cheap price with a hand like A4s, we also want to be able to get money in with as few bets as possible when we're OOP, so these two factors are always weighed against each other. Best case scenario, then, is to be at a 23-handed table, to limp first to act with A4s, and to have the fortune of having all 22 players limp behind you, so that we have a 23bb pot to bet into on the flop without having to invest any more than 1bb preflop.

Now, the above paragraph might be a bit of a nitpick/semantics argument, but it's all kind of irrelevant anyway when we hold 65cc. There are only 3 ways to make a nut straight, so unless we're massively deep this scenario isn't going to be worth even our 1bb investment (and as we get deeper and deeper, it gets less-and-less likely that villains will do all the heavy-lifting of pot bloating for us with lesser hands).

Even when we manage to get all the money in, we're just about never going to have them dominated. There is only one board where a straight-over-straight is possible, and that's only over one hand (A5 on a 234 board), and other than that, villain is always going to have ~9 outs against you (or if they're bad enough to get these massive hypothetical stacks in with two pair, then 4).

Finally, there's kind of this assumption that any old coordinated cards play well in multi-way pots. I'd actually argue that KTo plays better for a limp here than 65s does at a typical loose-passive table. The thing is that--unless we're at table where the prospect of a 6-high flush can make for enormous profits--65s is much more of a redline hand. If we're not often winning the pot without having the best hand, then the size of the pot in those few times we're winning the pot at showdown are not going to outweigh all the times that we lose the pot with 6-high or a pair of 5s. So how are these redline hands faring in multiway limped pots? Well if we just look at the phrase "loose-passive," then loose means that it's going to be tough win pots without a showdown when there are 5+ of these loose MFers out there looking for any excuse to call; passive means it's going to be easy to get to a cheap showdown. These conditions, then, favor a hand that has a good fighting chance to win at showdown. And since the general assumption is that our opponents don't bet light, we're not at risk of losing a lot of money with these "trouble hands" because we're rarely making a mistake by folding to any sort of resistance.

I'm not actually trying to defend open limping KTo UTG, obviously; I just think there are a lot of misconceptions about how profit is derived in limped pots in these games. I think we've gotten to a point where hot-and-cold equity is severely underrated as TAGs have become suckers for playable hands in and out of position. Something very fundamental is going wrong when I'm seeing more encouragement for limps with "playable" hands in EP--when it's still quite likely that the pot will be raised and when high SPR is to our disadvantage--than I do for limps in LP--when it's very rare that the pot will get raised at that point and when having a high SPR is a *massive* advantage for us when you combine our position with our skill.

I fold preflop. If we want to take advantage of our nitty image, we don't do that by loosening up our limping range in EP; we do that by opening up our raising range in LP, imo.

I would check/evaluate the flop. We should have zero FE here, so leading to take down the pot obviously ain't gonna happen. We do have decent equity, so leading can build a pot, but it's also possible a lot of ours aren't clean. I would check and evaluate. If a loose player opens and a bunch of loose players call, we might have enough dead money in the pot to consider shoving. If a tighter player bets and doesn't get much action, I would probably just call and try to hit my hand.

As played, I check the turn. It's going to be very difficult to fold out two players, especially on this non scariest of non scary turn cards, plus sets us up for potentially having to bluff the river when we whiff (which we will do the vast majority of the time). Just check/call a reasonable bet, imo.

On the river, I would shove. With only a PSB left, I don't think we're ever going to be able to bet/fold. Plus our hand is well disguised.

GcluelessNLnoobG

So what's wrong with being called/perceived as a nit? If you are going to play the hand, at least open it up for a raise just as you would your aa,kk ak, and all your value opens. Same sizing etc. Then you can capitalize on your nit image and have profitable c-bet spots. Moreover, you are more likely to stack people because they think you have something like aq+ 99+ being the nit that are, so they may float and/or bluff boards you actually hit now, and you can get a lot of value from top pair and people overplaying one pair and two pair holdings or sticking their whole stack in, on turns and rivers putting you on overpair only to be drawing dead b/c you turned,rivered straights and flushes and they made their two pair.


flop meh:
turn is a check, no fold equity.
-if you bet turn, sizing is poor given stack sizes.
-river might be more value in making a scared nitty check, and maybe they will overvalue two pair and straights and shove it for value never giving you a flush once you check. Shoving river is ridiculously face up. But I mean we are going broke in limped pots from ep with next to zero reads. Congrats we have successfully done away with the title of nit.

How much did we buy in for?

I would be very careful getting too out-of-line, especially in EP. The fact of the matter is that you can have the nittiest of nit images and still get called in multiple places with a raise (cuz people love stacking nits). Yesterday I was enduring an incredibly card dead session and basically hadn't played a hand in a couple of hours (almost literally?). Finally got AQs, raised a straddle and a limp to $30 in my 1/3 NL game, and still went 4ways to the flop.

Even with a nitty image, we really should only consider getting out-of-line preflop in LP and only against 1 or maybe 2 limpers; anything more, we're simply going to get called multiways (which means we have to hit the flop).

GcluelessNLnoobG