H is in the SB with a 400 dollar stack and looks down at KQo

V1 is in the BB and covers

V2 is UTG, has around 300, and is straddling for 6.

It folds around to me, and I think that a raise will often take it down, so I make it 20. V1 bumps it up to 60 and V2 calls.

1st question: how nitty is it to just fold here? I normally would (almost always do), but opted to call here last to act pre.

Flop (approx. 180): Js, Tc, 2h

2nd question: Hero??? Would an overbet semi-bluff donk shove be in your playbook here?

V1 is likely blocking at least 1 out to the straight (unless he was way out there).

I was having a pretty good session. My stack was a bit short here because I changed tables and couldn't bring my stack with me. That said, these two villains had been a little more aggressive than the rest of the table. Part of the shove idea is to show them that if they were going to play into me, then I'd be willing to flip for stacks in the hope that they'd leave me alone a bit more in the future.

Is that how degens play?

Agree with opening preflop. Depending on table dynamics you may want to size bigger given that you will be in the worst position post flop. I don’t think it is nitty to fold to the 3-bet. Raising from the BB typically suggests a tight range and 3-betting a SB open should be even tighter. You will be out of position with an unsuited often dominated hand in a bloated pot. I fold this for sure.

Flop overbet jam would be bad. I understand you'd be trying to maximize fold equity with a semibluff, but this play just allows your opponents to play perfectly. Your draw won’t have a ton of equity when called. I don’t think I would have a donking range at all in this spot. I would check and c/f, c/c or c/r are all possible actions depending what ensues.

Please don't post results, as they bias people's responses. I edited them out. Please wait until discussion dies down, or at least 24 hours (whichever is longer) to reveal results.

Easy fold, pre imo. You will be OOP for the rest of the hand with a holding that generally does poorly against live 3-bet ranges, and the stacks are short.

What do you think an overbet donk shove represents here? Would you ever play a set like that?

I'm fine with our preflop raise.

What's our read on these players? Is BB aware/capable/aggro enough to realize we could easily be opening very wide here and then 3bet light? Or is he like a lot of players and simply 3betting the top of his range? And what the heck is the Straddler doing coldcalling a 3bet? Is he a major fish or is this simply always a very strong hand? If BB is aware/capable/aggro and UTG is a major fish, I could ~perhaps get behind a 4bet committing bet at these stacks with all this huge dead money. But mostly I'm simply folding with this easily dominated hand OOP.

A hugenormous part of a typical players cold flatting of a 3bet range is made up of JJ/TT ("not good enough to 4bet, but too good to fold"). So I don't think I'd be open jamming into this board. Think I'd rather check/evaluate and then base my decision on what happens.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Against the average LLSNL player who thinks 3 betting JJ and AK are maniac plays, it was a good raise pf, but now it is time to fold. If the villain, as hinted, are deigns, then 4bet, gii.

Never betting the flop as played. Let someone else make the first move.

Is a 4bet bluff here totally out to lunch?
Not something I'd ever do but it would look very very strong.

I would have to see that someone has a 3b/fold range before I would ever try to 4-bet bluff them live. It is just sooo rare. Usually, if it's worth 3-betting, it's worth calling a shove to most LLSNL players.

You shouldn't raise with the goal of "taking it down" pre. We don't make money that way. We only make a limp or two. When you raise you should always want one caller, two at the most, because especially in 1/3 the recreational players are just fishing for flops. For example, we have 56s, we raise, and AQ calls. Flop comes K28r. We cbet, and he folds the best hand because we had the initiative and we're the ones forcing him to make a hand to continue.

OTTH

Raising pre was fine, but once you get raised and someone cold calls, it's time to fold. Making good folds in poker isn't about being nitty, it's about being smart because we know their ranges should be ahead of ours.

I wouldn't start thinking about it unless we were deeper, but if the 3bettor is known to be a button presser and 3bets light, this is one of the best hands to do it with because we don't lose any value if he 5 bets and we have to fold, and we also block KK, AK, AQ and QQ. Also I wouldn't necessarily do it with a cold caller in the middle.

Taking down 3.3bb unraked OOP with this hand is never a bad result.

GimoG

nope, but we shouldn't be raising hoping to do it though. We need to raise and expect someone will come along, and already start thinking about his range (just like flying ahead of the airplane).

I'd open to 30 but 25 is fine too. 20 is too small imo.

Fold to the 3bet were oop with a hand that can't make the nuts and it often dominated.

Flop I for sure wouldn't have a donk jam range. You're not going to do it with TT or JJ so you're going to be way over bluffing.

Check jam is fine if he bets a size that gives us fold equity. Check call is fine if he bets 130-180. If one of them just jams then we can fold since we are likely up against TT-AA and even when it's best case QQ or AJ we don't have the required equity to call an overbet

Agree 20 is too small if Hero raises. But i think this is an ok spot to complete.

You can fold to the 3! It's not nitty as we have many stronger hands, hands with better playability and hands less likely to be dominated.

Against weak opponents we can maybe construct a case for overbet jam, but it might be a bit optimistic. The main goal of jamming would be to fold out aq and ak, but its not clear villain(s) will even fold that. And lots of other hands should never fold.

I think having 4-bet bluffing ranges against randoms at 1-2 or 1-3 is lighting money on fire, since their 3-bet ranges are generally so tight.

Sure if we have evidence that they 3-bet light we can consider it, but the default unknown, no for sure.

Also when you do get called you have shitty equity. A typical 3 bet range for tighter could be just AA, KK, perhaps add in queeens or jacks, and AK for the looser ones. You're terrible against that range, plus when the flop comes down Q89, or K42, are you folding? Ton of RIO.

Pre raise too small. Make it 4x min oop, add on a bb depending on limpers. I would also consider just completing this combo from the sb.

Flop donk is lol. What value hands in ur range donks flop?

Ap, x and decide.

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Preflop isn’t a no brainer although I think you picked the worst option. Did you say these guys were 3 betting a lot?

15 pre, they're in blind, smaller sizing can keep that edge built in if they continue and what's with all this nonsensical preflop blast off sizing?

AP check-decide, maybe they bet a pile and you can just rip and get there.

@Garick, thanks for the edit and noted for the future.

The main point was that these were the only two players somewhat capable of showing aggression at the table, but on this occasion I didn't buy it. I had been raising the guy's straddle all afternoon, and I just thought the guy in the BB was looking for a quick takedown of the pot.

He had already folded to a few overbets earlier in the evening, so I got the feeling that he didn't like putting money in the pot without having a very strong hand.

Results: for a variety of reasons (not very related to my direct equity in the pot), I open shoved and they both folded.

I guess that my real question here is how much they need to be folding here with the equity that I have in the pot for this to be a profitable play.

Admittedly, several of my outs to the straight are probably dirty, so the villains need to be folding a ton for this to be a profitable play.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone!

The big problem with the shove is that it represents no real value hand. If your Vs are thinking on that level, they will never fold TP+ to it.