1/3 live full ring 200 max bi

Hero (SB): Young Asian with headphones. Reg. tag image. ~250

V1 (UTG): old white man. Dressed roughly. Has a large stack in piles of 50, taking a lot of space and doesn't seem to comfortable with live play. Loose pasisve. Limp calls a lot pre. Playing 60/7. ~700

V2 (BTN): MAWG. Agrotard. Playing 50/35 (hour sample size). Sizes correctly which is very rare for this game. Has rebought a few times. Played a hand where V2 opened pre, loose asian calls IP. V2 double barrels on AQ34r board. Asian ships turn, V2 snaps. River is 7. Asian shows A2o. V2 mucks. ~200

Pre ($4)
Effective stacks $200. V1 limps. Loose passive Asian opens UTG+2 to 7 (his standard sizing is 7-13). MP calls, HJ calls. V2 calls. Hero w/ KQ tanks for 10 seconds then calls. (Is this correct???? I was thinking about a 3bet since this table is loose passive and there's a lot of dead money already. But I decided to play with less variance. I was a bit confused so I just took the passive way out and called). BB calls. V1 calls.

Flop ($42)
Q98
Hero checks (????). I thought that my hand was probably strong enough to check raise, and also leading turns my hand pretty face up. V1 bets $10. MP calls. HJ calls. V2 raises to $45. Everyone except for V1 pick up their cards as if they're ready to fold. Hero??? I think V is raising here with a super wide range, and everyone else doesn't seem too strong. Good spot to 3bet??

I'd love to get some advice on previous spots in the hand as well.

Pre seems OK. Obviously if making it $40 or $50 takes it down a lot of the time that's a good play, but if V2 will call you then you'll start a calling train and be playing a bloated multi-way pot without position.

I like the flop check, but not to set up a check-raise. You're 7-way here, and your hand isn't that strong. Check-raising is overplaying your hand. I probably check-call but could also see leading.

As played, if you call this bet you're getting it all in at some point. Depending on how good you feel about your reads I either shove or fold. Usually folding.

I would have 3! pre. KQo does not play well multiway OOP. As played, if you think V2 can raise lighter made hands or draws then shove. I disagree with MIB that check raising is overplaying our hand. TP2K with an SPR <5 on a wet flop, I'm comfortable just GII and reloading if necessary.

I'd agree with you head's up, but this is a 7-way pot that was raised to $7 pre. I don't really think SPR concepts are nearly as relevant here, everyone has a very wide range, and not sure that there are made hands we beat that call a x/r other than maybe QJ or QT.

Fold.

You can find a better spot to get the money in. Really don't like V1s limp/call peflop then lead. In combination with a raise from V2 I'm not liking my chances. Too easy for V1 to have 88/99/J10. V2 seems to have a FD, but could also have J10.

You're not attached to this pot much at all after calling a small raise pre and checking the flop. Just fold I say.

So you recommend passively calling, pricing in all of the draws, and then shoving the turn (because we will have less than a PSB remaining)? That is a rhetorical question - of course we can't do that.

This is a shove or fold spot and I'm not folding TP2K to this described villain. The made hands we beat are likely only QJ/QT, but there are plenty of draws out there as well. Calling is pretty bad in my opinion.

Shove and embrace the variance.

Johnny I agree with 3 bet pre, as played I agree check raising is not overplaying, however I really dont like this spot once it turns into cold 3 bet or fold. Calling is really bad I think. Let's say V2 just flats the cbet, we make it 50 then V1 shoves, V2 folds are you calling it off or folding?

I agree this is not a great situation to be in, but that's what happens when you flat a hand like KQo OOP in a multiway pot. 3! or folding would have solved this pre.

In the situation you describe, if V1 check/3! the flop over our check/raise then I would have no trouble folding the hand having put in less than 1/3 of effective stacks. However, given the way it played out I am not going to MUBs it up and put V1 on a strong range just because he limp/called pre and donked small.

Further, given we are likely ahead of V2's range, our poor position and awkward stack sizes for continuing on the turn, it seems like a no brainer shove. But the mistake in the hand was made pre, all we can do now is try to make the best of the situation.

Edit: we can also protect ourself vs. V1 and save $75-100 if he has a monster by raising to $150-175 rather than shoving for our $250. If we raise and V1 folds, V2 will shove because he only has another $50 behind. If we raise and V1 shoves, we can fold and save $100 knowing KQ is no good.

3! pre
Calling is the worst option on the flop. I am most likely folding here. But I can see why shoving would be a profitable play as well. I just don't like shoving here more than folding simply because there is 7 people on the flop.

I said it was a shove or fold on the flop, and recommended folding. He may have a lot of draws, but a lot of those draws have the Ad or Jd, which means we are basically flipping against them.

Interesting analysis. I definitely though give the flop action, my hand was way to strong to fold. But I also didn't want to just flat and play a massively inflated pot oop as well. So I considered 3betting here. I don't like shipping here because we can never really get called by worse. So instead I decided to 3bet to $110. Simply because I don't expect to get 4bet enough (or at all), and that it be almost as effective as shipping.

Flop ($42)
Q98
V1 bets $10. MP calls. HJ calls. V2 raises to $45. Hero 3bets to $110. V1 tank calls.
V2 tank calls.

Turn ($392)
J
Hero????? As soon as V1 cold called my 3! I instantly put him on a flush draw since I expected him to be two pair+ hands a lot bigger. And he is an old loose player definitely capable to chasing draws inelastically. I didn't think either V had JT or even sets or else they would've have gotten it in on the flop. And fish also love "protecting against flush draws".

400 in the pot and we have ~130 behind right? I think we just have to close our eyes and stick it in as played.

With your raise and the 1:4 SPR you have no options now but to stick it in and hope for the best.

Playing hands this way I can see why a lot of guys here report making 15BBs/hr for 200 hrs and then have a 200 hr stretch where you lose money. Just fold this flop and you wont see anywhere near that kind of volatility in your results.

A bet and a raise on this flop before it gets to you, you are rarely ahead and if you are you its to something like QJ / QT that will outdraw you way too often to continue profitably.

Preflop call is fine. No reason to 3b a loose passive player that opened in EP. I think against better players we either 3b or fold this hand OOP, but I think we can call and play better than our V's post flop.

Definitely check OTF, because I want to see what V1 does, plus there's a good chance V2 bets if it checks to him and that's what we want. After V2's raise, I'm just shipping it. I think V1 folds his most of his range (including hands that are beating us) and we should get called by worse vs V2 (based off of your description) plenty enough to make it profitable.

Grunch.

I can find a fold pre. KQo in worst position multi-way against a passive raiser isn't a huge moneymaking opportunity.

If I do play, I 3b to reduce the field and make post flop decisions easier. I'm also happy to win pre. And quite happy if I get 4b now rather than losing a chunk of my stack later.

As played, I'm hating life. SPR is just under 5 (if 200 effective applies to all V's) close to the commitment point, but not quite there in a multi-way raised pot. I could see betting, planning to commit if no one raises and the turn isn't gross. If someone is likely to raise with a draw, betting is less attractive. If I can be sure a raise means I'm beat and a call means I'm in good shape (i.e. everyone plays fit/fold straightforwardly), betting is really attractive. The only situation where I'm currently committed would be HU against V2.


Check/calling, planning to commit if the turn isn't gross might also work, though we're then more likely to have a difficult turn decision.

I don't think leading the flop turns our hand face up. I'd lead this flop with JT, 99, 88, AQ or KQ or a big combo draws. In other words, if I lead here, I've probably got something between the stone nuts and nothing (with a draw). (I might also check some of these hands in some circumstances.)

As played OTF, I think I call and shove most turns. If V1 repops the flop, we can fold without getting stacked.

As played on the turn and river, I agree that we were ahead of V's ranges on the flop. River is gross. Effective stacks are now $83. Neither checking nor betting is attractive. If we bet, we're getting called by any T. We're probably not folding out any 2P or set. All the busted draws muck. We lose $83 if beaten and win nothing if ahead. If we check, any T will bet. Sets and 2P probably check it back. Either V could find a bluff (though V1 less likely). I think we lose less checking. If it gets checked around, yay. If V1 bets and V2 calls, we muck. If V1 checks and V2 calls, we call. We're in a negative EV spot, but I think checking is less negative EV than shoving into such a strong board.



After reading responses. I see everyone hates calling the flop here.

I disagree we're committed with SPR 5 in a six-way raised pot (six players at $7 each for $42, no?).

Pot is 117 when it gets to us; effective remaining stacks are ~145. If we call, pot is 162 (still with 145 behind). As indicated, I think we're committed against V2, but I wouldn't be against V1, especially if he calls a shove.

I feel like shoving gives both V's the best chance to play their hands perfectly, while calling still lets us get stacks in against V2 while dodging V1 if he really has a hand.

Preflop really depends on what we make of the minraise preflop. If this can never be a monster at a loose table, then I would be pretty happy 3betting at this stack depth, probably to like $65 so I could setup a PSB shove on any flop. I don't hate flatting, but I'm giving up on TP very easily.

I would rarely consider TP strong enough to check/raise. The board is drawy, so I wouldn't hate a donk (and fold to any raise), as with this drawy board no one is going to fool around with a better hand. I also don't hate a passive check (and most likely fold to anything but the most passive of action). ETA: Actually, with the loose aggro guy having position on us, I'm much more for just check/evaluating as a donk is rarely going to get him out of the pot and we'll just set ourselves up for so many gross turn situations.

As played, it's possible Villain picked up on extreme weakness of everyone. It's also possible he simply has a really good hand. It's also still possible that any one of the other 3 players is still going to continue. We didn't basically overlimp preflop to get into a very multiway pot with this hand to just hit TP and stack off with, so I'm continuing with that plan. ETA: I know our plan sorta changes thanks to this aggro Villain taking the reigns here, but we've also see 3 others interested in this pot (admittedly for a small bet) and yet he's still continuing with being aggro; if this was like checked to him and he bet I could much more get behind continuing.


GcluelessNLnoobG

Thanks guys for the responses. I thought that on the turn, if i was ahead of everyone's ranges on the flop, the only I'm losing to are QT and T7. I thought V1 cold calling me as well as V2's flat with hardly behind was pretty weak.

FWIW:

Turn ($392)
J
Hero shoves. V1 tank calls. V2 calls saying "I'm probably dead but I just want to see your hand."

River ($741)
3
Hero shows KQ. V1 shows K6. V2 gets very mad and shows the J. Was this hand played optimally or did I just get lucky?

The hand was not played optimally, nor did you get lucky. As has been mentioned, 3! Pre (you can see now that KQo is still a "value" raise vs. their terrible ranges, but generally it's a semi-bluff raise with blockers).

Your flop raise was too small as it gave direct odds to V1. A small donk is often a weak made hand or draw, so keep that in mind for future reference when sizing your raises so as to not give proper odds to draw.

Other than that, nh. In the meantime I will pat myself on the back.