Hi all,

Kind of a weird spot here.

V1: Has like $260 to start the hand. Very typical OMC in general. Have not seen him do anything too crazy. He folded A10 on the button one hand. One hand he bet QQ into like 4 people on a K high board.

V2: Middle aged woman who is here playing with her husband. Honestly playing pretty aggressively. Has a fold button. She 3 bet pre one hand against me when I had 89 board went 10d 22 she bet flop I called, Turn was a King which she checked and I checked back. River she absolutely bombed it. So was possibly trying to trap me on the turn. She is the effective stack with less than 200.

H: Youngest guy at the table. Not really playing well. The table is terrible in general. No action. The blinds are chopping like every 3rd hand. Should have gotten a table change. Im winning a lot of pots pre. Virtually no 3 betting at all.

OTTH: Folds to me in the HJ and I raise with KQ to $12

V2 calls on the button and V1 calls in the SB.

($39) Flop 1093

Checks to me. Usually not betting at a high frequency here as this board connects more with their range than mine, however, these players are fit or fold overall and there are a lot of good turn cards for me to barrel (so I think)

I bet $17 button calls SB raises to $38 total.

Now I know this is always a made hand and he NEVER does this with a flush draw.

I don't really wanna call but I do and so does the button.

($153)Turn 7

He bets $35. Ugh! Can't fold to this sizing. I think he has a set honestly (99 and 10 10 a lot) I don't really want to call but do and the button goes all in and it's another 53 to call.

SB reluctantly calls

So i have to call $53 to win $329 with one card to come on the river.

I could be drawing dead here some of the time.

Thoughts overall?

How should I play this differently?

Should I fold at any point?

I call and the turn is the Q

me and the SB check

Is the turn bet $35 or %53, and I assume the Qc is the river?

At any rate, fold to the raise OTF. Your overs are good approx never when an OMC raises small, so you are only drawing to a gutshot and a "draw to a draw" of a backdoor one-card flush.

So the SB bets $35 and the button after I call goes all in for $88 total

agree with Garick. OMC is super nutted here. You should fold when he min-raises. It sucks and feels so exploitable but OMC can't exploit.

Also with V2 left to act it sucks even more to call.

With relatively smallish stacks, even at tightish tables where a raise will often thin the field, I'm beginning to wonder whether open limping this hand from like the HJ is better than raising it (I'll get flamed for that). At one time I thought it was a rather obvious open, but now I'm not so sure, due to setting up quite small handcuffing SPRs where against some opponents (especially at tighter tables) we're not thrilled stacking off with TP (as our preflop raise has often narrowed the Ks and Qs to dominating ones). On the Button, perhaps the CO, more reason to do so since we'll likely be guaranteed position (look how much lack of position hurts us postflop on this hand) and a lot more chance of a HU pot. But in the HJ, it's more dicey. I dunno, just something I've been thinking a lot about lately.

I don't mind cbetting the flop since we can get Ax to fold (a real coup) and we have some equity (overs + gutshot). Although if we feel the aggro woman is going to raise a lot, I think I'd lean to my free card attempt. I like our small sizing.

Think we gotta fold to the check/raise. Our overs have poor RIO, our gutshot might not be all clean, and Button could reraise.

With other guy behind us who could easily be on the flush draw, I think we have to lean towards sigh folding the turn too. And facing the turn shove there's too good a chance we're drawing dead, so I think we gotta fold again.

Gpreflopisaninterestingstreet,imoG

Did you come to this conclusion based on experience or math?
Let's say everyone folds & BB checks. We'll take a PPs & any 2 Broadway cards out of his range. V has ~30% equity thru the flop with that shytty range, which includes 72o. And, he gets to realize that flop equity w/o charge.

It would interesting to see what your o/r range is from the BU, CO, HJ & LJ seats is. What you'll call a raise behind you with when you open/ limp, what you'll flat a !3 with when you o/r, & !4 with, etc. Those 4 seats are the money making seats.

OMG! I thought Hero had KJo! Even with KQo [which I'd have to be up against a special game dynamic to consider folding] V still has 30% equity thru the flop.

@ Zune, just some random points

- as I say in another thread, these sorts of hands are real works-in-progress from me, with the overall overriding concept that I'm mostly concentrating on now being that I almost never want to play a big hand with them (and big hands are built on preflop raises)
- getting 72o to see a flop in the BB and realize some of his equity may be a good thing depending on how poorly he plays postflop
- think every respondent so far has agreed with folding to the flop check/raise, so you better have some good arguments for doing otherwise, imo

GcluelessNLnoobG

* The blinds are choppin' every 3rd hand. If we assume remaining players only call/raise pre with 15.5% of starting hands & there are 4 players left & you open for 3x BB, you are going to take the blinds down .845^4 = 50.98% of the time. These NITS are only !3 QQ+ & maybe AKs, which is 1.98%.

I am not saying that I know I'm right, I just don't see how limping is any good.


They are tight, fit/fold players. Not much chance of them getting tied down to a pair of 7s [with their 72o] on a KT7r flop.

Of course you fold! However, I never would have been betting on this flop to begin with.

* There is a flush draw
* It is multi-way
* There is a ten otf & another card close to it
* I do not have absolute position
* I have nothing but 2 overs [that help with a str8 draw when I make a pair] BDFD to my Q & a gutshot str8 draw.

Here is a quote of OP's when deciding to bet otf: " Usually not betting at a high frequency here as this board connects more with their range than mine, however, these players are fit or fold overall and there are a lot of good turn cards for me to barrel" (so I think)

That quote sounds exactly like two well know mid/high stakes players in their Vlogs. Their 10/20NL players are more tuned in to their play than the majority of LLSNL players.

I think they are calling your c-bet otf only when they have at least an 8 out draw or better, so you'd be behind the callers, when it comes to outs vs. outs when you have high card.

What happened to delayed the c-bet play ott?

I am very interested in seeing what this fit or fold SB c/r the flop with, bet the turn & then checking the river with. J8? Not from a NIT, amirite?

If OP won this pot, I believe it's because he's been doing this often [in LP] than they have & someone finally got fed up with it.

Flop bet is fine, though I would size up here to around $25. $17 is just a really weird sizing.

Ideally we take it down. BTN folding and SB calling is fine as well. Only not super happy if both call. We can bet pretty much any J, Q, K or A and generally realize our equity when a drops.

Obviously folding to the nit-raise, but I’ve certainly been roped into these hands before.

Doesn't cAmmAndo's COTM apply anymore? https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...tting-1550652/

Doesn't WCGRyder's post apply anymore? https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...63&postcount=1

Maybe I am failing at comprehending their teachings?

WCGRyder's post:

Factors in favor of a CBET

+++ Board is Ace or King high
++ Board is Queen or Jack high
++ Board does not contain a flush draw
++ Board is relatively not connected
++ Heads up pot
+ Checked to
+ Opponent often folds to Cbet
+ You have a hand very unlikely to have showdown value

Factors AGAINST a CBET

--- Pot is multiway. (The more players, the worse)
-- Flop has a flushdraw
-- Flop contains a Ten and a card somewhat near a ten
-- Flop is monotone
-- Flop is very connected
-- Flop is low
- OOP
- Opponent rarely folds to cbets
- Your hand may have some limited showdown value.

These are all things to note, the more +'s or -'s it has the more important it is. For a rough guide on whether to cbet or not, add up the +'s and the -'s. If you have more +'s, then a cbet is probably better. Vice versa applies.

Now, lets talk about Double Barrels *Note! You should NOT be double barreling with any sort of frequency at very low levels*

Double barrels are ONLY good when the board dynamic changes in a way that DRASTICALLY changes the value of a given hand.

But you're concentrating on the times we take it down preflop. And while I'm not ignoring those small wins, I'm suggesting that overall those small wins might not make up for the times we end up in a bloated pot OOP postflop with a hand that is dominated in a small SPR pot (a very gross spot, imo).

GworkinprogressG

No I'm not. I'm looking at the table dynamic; I'm looking at the odds of me getting CO & BU to fold; I'm looking at my skill set vs. Vs post-flop. I'm not c-betting this wet board vs. 2 Vs. I am c-betting a lot of flops that don't connect with my perceived range of what they call with, because they are fit/fold type players.

I need a tough V in the CO or BU for me to consider folding KJo in the HJ. Who knows, that may be part of the reason I am not winning 10BBs+ per hour over my last 1500 hrs of play these last 13 months.

But GG you're ignoring a common outcome too. You keep talking about how your Vs are too loose pre, but tough to get value post. Well, when I raise with KJ in late position, I'm not raising to steal the blinds. I'm raising to steal the calls. I expect to take it down OTF often, and will be slowing way down if I don't and all I have is one pair or less.

Yeah, I'm not ignoring those cbet-and-take-it's either, and those and the preflop steals will add up (although they do have to be balanced with the times our raise blows out a dominated hand that would have paid off some streets postflop). But for me the question is lately do they make up for the times where we setup a multiway bloated pot small SPR where we run into a dominating hand on a drawy board (almost impossible to get away from, imo), and I'm not totally convinced they do.

As someone else mentioned in another thread, it's probably fairly borderline. My guess being overall it has more meta-game benefits (i.e. not being seen as the guy's whose raising range is TT+/AK) than actual huge EV benefits in itself.

Gbut,Icouldbewrong,andI'mmostlyfencesittingG

Hand seems like a train wreck to me most of the way. I think i bet this flop vs two opponents though and try to take it down.

AP, yes u can fold to the $35 when the flush comes in and you certainly can fold to an all in behind as well. IMO, two mistakes on one street.

Check flop. Not a great spot to cbet