If this is intended to be the defining comment of the hand, I'm goin to have to ask you to flesh out more of opponents tendencies, because this to me does not really tell me much of anything. I tend to be one of the more active players at a table but I can easily have entire dealer of folds even longer or more than one in a 6 hr session.

Also, I understand we need to make decisions based upon insufficient evidence but one hand in 30 minutes does not equal a range of AA+ (sarcasm, i realize there is no + w/ the AA range)

As such: Why is your opponent going to make a bigger mistake post flop than pre flop? If you have evidence dude spews post flop and makes all sorts of dumb errors, then sure - flat away. However I'd wager your super tight opponent will probably still make a larger error pre flop meaning we should be putting more money in now. I just dont see how flatting with KK here helps us aside from the hope that villain will blast 3 streets on all boards that dont present to us an issue.

Returning to the earlier point about inferences on insufficient information: if villain is a nit because he only played QQ in 30 minutes, I would also assume that villain will also scare more easily on boards that suggest even the slightest bit of bumps so short of villain flopping a hand against which you are drawing dead or some sick cooler in your favor, I'd conclude we dont make all that much post flop that often.

Furthermore, raising with KK helps us build the necessary fold equity we want when we are bluffing with hands like A5s etc etc especially vs nittier players.

Usually I 4 bet unless they look like someone who is a pro and knows how nutted the average 4 bet range is. Twice over the last few months I 4 bet KK against my better judgment against people that fit that bill only to see them fold QQ. Both times they were reasonably new to the table.

Most of the population isn’t folding TT-QQ/AK to a 4 bet so at this stack depth let’s build the pot.

As played, I would probably act like a rec and click it back like I have a 9 or TT and I’m trying to find out where I’m at. I don’t think calling is terrible though as a lot of people will spazz/get entitlement tilt with AK and punt here. Both have merit. I’ve definitely taken both lines in this spot.

Villain (SB): late 20s white guy, only seen him play one hand in the last half hour where he raised with QQ ($450)
Hero (EP): late 20s Asian guy, TAG image (covers)

Hero opens $15 in EP with KK. Villain 3 bets to $36 in the SB. Hero calls.

Flop: 962 ($70)

Villain bets $60. Hero calls.

Turn: 6 ($190)

Villain bets $125. Hero ???

Nothing has really changed on the turn, I'm calling again.

Hand is still sooo underrepresented given action which gives V confidence to barrel turn with TT, JJ, QQ.

I'm waiting for the mountain of threads following this demanding a raise. I wonder what that does to TT, JJ, QQ... That being said with your line and under-rep if im villain and you raise here and im holding JJ QQ im not folding with a great deal of ease...

All in all I still think i call...

As an aside just trying to think then what hands in my range i raise with here.. 99,22, 67s, (which i could call given super small 3bet pre) for value, and really only 78ss, AsKs for a bluff. I think maybe QQ+ falls into calling range then... i dont know im trying to work on this type of 'balance'

Late to the game here. No way I don't 4! this pre to $80 or $90, but we are long gone from that part of the thread.

If you choose to just flat pre and OTF, I thing you flat here as well and allow V to barrell off the whole way. If he has a pp other than AA, he may check the river and you can bet for value at that point.

As an aside, if we don't think we can 4! KK here for Value 150 bb's deep, then we don't have a 4! range. And using the read of "seen V play one hand in 30 minutes where he raised with QQ" as a reason NOT to 4! because we think he is tight is ludicrous. I mean how many hands have you seen in 30 minutes? 20 at the most??? Have you never folded 19-20 hands?

Basically, we have NO READ on how V plays AT ALL. So default play should nearly ALWAYS be to 4! KK IP pre in this spot with this stack size. If we were shorter (say 75 blinds) or much deeper (say 300 blinds), then I could maybe see a case for flatting (for different reasons obviously). But at 150 deep vs a total unknown, I think you lose a tremendous amount of value by flatting here.

I call turn again.

You’ll have about $240 effective going to the river and the pot is going to be $440.

OP: where is this in LV? Aria, Bellagio, Wynn? Elsewhere?

From the first post I take it there were no callers of your open.

I think significantly reduces the chances he is squeezing with a less than stellar hand. Heck, I am probably folding AJ a very high percentage of the time if I’m in his spot.


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I'm also flatting turn.

I ship river if he checks.

Probably a sigh call if he ships, unless perhaps a Q falls.

FWIW: I played a ~6.5 hour 1/3 NL session last night at a typical run-of-the-mill table. Number of 4bets preflop? Zero. Totally standard, imo. Saw a decent amount of 3bets (and even those generated a decent amount of folds).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Since you go at it again, hammering at this nonsense combined with you ignoring and running away from my previous posts/arguments presented to you: why didnt you make any light 4 bets yourself this game or any of your countless hours played before this game?

Based on what you are claiming in this thread that people "routinely folds hands like JJ/QQ" to preflop 4 bets, widening your 4 bet range is the most basic exploitative readjustment like ever, and is an adjustment that will print you money. IF what youre claiming is true that is.

If its not true on the other hand, KK is a slam dunk easy 4 bet for fat value.

Wow, so simple. So you're telling me all I have to do is raise light in EP at a super loose table, and instead of getting the expected 4 callers, somehow get it to fold to like the one other tight guy sitting non-short there, have him 3bet, and then 4bet and print monies?

Gcan'tbelieveIdidn'tthinkofthatG

Yeah, so simple: you are trying to tell me that people in your game folds huge parts of their 3 bet range when facing a 4 bet. After 27 000 posts and countless years on this forum and thousands of hours of cashgame played live it shoudnt be that hard for you to seek out spots to 4 bet light considering what you are claiming: that people almost instafold JJ/QQ or AK to 4 bets in your games.

So my question remains: if what you are claiming is really true, and not something you tell yourself in your head why isnt you 4 betting light more often to exploit that? And why havent you made that adjustment long time ago? I know the answer, and so do alot of other posters reading- but it would be refreshing for you to admit it honestly for once instead of ridicilous string of excuses and strawman arguments.

What you argue is that players only continue with KK/AA if you decide to 4 bet (or anybody else in your games for that matter, but lets focus on you that is a 2+2er and should thus focus on what the most +EV plays is), so 4 betting a hand like A5s or A4s is massive +EV play to have in your arsenal.

The reason i am going hard after you on this is basically what countless other good players have pushed you up against the wall on before only for you to run away when you run out of arguments: you cant have it both ways. You cant both argue that KK cant be a 4 bet for value because everyone routinely folds hands like JJ/QQ preflop when facing a 4 bet, AND at the same time argue that an uber nitty style with zero light 3 or 4 bets is the most +EV route to go.

No. What he actually is saying is that you incorporating ANY light betting of ANY kind into your game given your image would increase your win rate. But if you aren't interested in doing that, then fine.

Yes, also this.

Gospel

I've stated my argument pretty clearly in my last post, and if that's the conclusions you guys are coming to, then that's your right. I won't derail the thread any more regarding it.

GOPandotherscanmakeuptheirownmindG

As expected you start out stubborn and loud as usual in this discussion,but as soon as you face somebody that push you up against the wall with rationale and accurate counter arguments you run away from the discussion in any way you can. Obviously because you run out of arguments.

I will tell you one last thing and why i believe you refuse to loosen up your game or admit to the forum that more light 4 bets can be a proper adjustment for you in your games (if what youre claiming is true). You are risk averse,uncomfortable with widen your game outside your comfort zone, more eager to book winning sessions through safe nut peddling that is well known territory for you- than you are willing to open up your game and make the most +EV adjustments.

One of the reasons i became a decent pokerplayer GG is my ability to understand people, profile people accurately,knowing their weaknesses and how they think/make rationales.You are not an exception.

I rest my case.

While I was undecided about 4-betting PF, I agree with trying to get it in here, assuming we are getting called enough by TT/JJ/QQ to make up for the times we are up against AA.

I think flatting pre here is best, for two reasons. One, because we are in position and we can keep our range is wide and two, because at those lower stakes 4 bet is considered a very strong move and it can make people fold strong hands. Once we ve flatted, I think it's easier to get it on the flop or turn being able to stack overpairs, whereas 150BB deep it's tough for people to go broke with AK, QQ,JJ. It always depends on the player of course.


As an aside, I hadn't played 1-3 for a couple of years ago until i sat on a table a couple of weeks ago. I saw a guy who I thought was raising wide so I 3bet his B raise from the SB with AJs. The BB who had like 70 in front of him folded QQ face up or something!

I have lost track of the number of times I have folded every single hand during a dealer's down at the table and I am only tight in the UTG/+1/+2 & +3 seats at a 10 handed table. It doesn't happen every day, but often enough for me to consider it a common occurrence

I said !3 to $90 above, because I put AKo in V's raising range and that's 12 combos that I thought he might fold pre only getting 2.26:1 on his money. If it's QQ+ & AKs that he raises with, you have 52% equity & 49% vs QQ+.

I don't like flipping for stacks when the money overlay is so light, so I'm good with flatting in those cases.

Note that if the other 8 players were dealt a total of one ace, one or more aces will flop [when V has AK] 2 * [(41*40)/2] = 1640 times out of 11,480 times [with 42 unseen cards], or 14.28% of the time. If it comes AQTr & he bets 1/2 pot, do you fold with your gutshot & 2 outs to a set, or float 1 street?

The argument going on about 4betting preflop in this thread reminded me of a thread that I started over 3 years ago:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...23/?highlight=

The basic idea behind that thread is that sometimes, when you know someone is not 3betting light, AND you know they're folding to a 4bet with a range that seems like you should be able to bluff them a ton, you still can't exploit them with light 4bets because you are laying odds that you will not get action.

This idea is why GG can theoretically be correct that we should not 4bet KK and also that we should not 4bet light. (Although in this particular spot I don't have enough information to say I agree with him.)

Late to the game, but I've got to support GG on the flat pre, and then we essentially just have to go into call down mode if the flop stays 9-high. We have little information on V except that he seems tight and has raised once with QQ. Earlier in this thread, someone suggested that this type of villains 3! range is JJ+/AK but IME this is honestly more like the 2-betting range I would expect from this type of player. Maybe my games are different than a lot of you out there, but I've been shocked lately to see how rarely my opponnents 3! AK/QQ/JJ.

Based on our limited information my range on V would be something like: 5% JJ, 5% AK, 20% QQ, 10% KK (since we have KK), 55% AA, and 5% random spazz. It is ultra-tight forsure but more and more I keep seeing so many flats with JJ/QQ/AK that a 3! from many opponents means AA/KK so much of the time.

Late to the party, but...

Pre is a 4bet AINEC. If V is folding everything except KK+ to us, then we can hammer this spot with like our entire normal 3betting range and print money. At 150bbs deep I'm not concerned with running into AA.

Flop I would raise before a scare card affects the TT-QQ part of his range. He's unlikely to triple barrel bluff us with AK (which we block anyway) so I don't see the merits of calling.

AP to the turn, same logic. Dunno what we're waiting for here.


Basically, +1 to all of Petrucci's advise in this thread, which is spot on.

Lol no, he is not correct. Even though the decision pre could be an interesting debate with other premises and better more sound logic than what GG is hangup on in this thread. For example if we should flat pre as a balance flatting range purpose against a reg we log alot of hours with, or if the 3 bettor have a wide spewy 3 bet range wich we force him to fold alot of his weak garbage pre that he could fire away with post if we choose to 4 ball him.

The principle i am hammering on in this thread though is basically the same you see from countless OMC and nits way of playing. They get to a point where they gets sick/desperate of getting no action on their 3 bets with QQ+ range (cause every non drooler knows they are nits and only 3 bets the nutz so they start folding more correctly), so what the OMC ends up doing as a ******ed backwards adjustment they start to flat opens instead with this range instead of 3 betting their premiums. When obviously every good player knows that the correct and most +EV adjustment is to keep 3 betting your premiums, but slowly sprinkle in some lighter 3 bets in your range to abuse some of the folds you get. Not to stop 3 betting at all,wich OMC/nits does because they find it too uncomfortable/scary to start open up their game more and stepping outside their comfort zone.

grunch: if you havent 4 bet light i probably just call pre because you have position. OOP i like a 4 bet always

In addition to ignoring the math from the thread I linked, and assuming that just because I am presenting evidence to back up someone's conclusion means I agree with the logic they used to get there, you're also making a mistake in your response to me: you're confusing 3bets and 4bets.

It is possible to be playing in a game where both of these things are true:

1) We should not be 3betting light because our 3bets get action from fish who call 3bets a lot.

2) We should not be 4betting light because other people are not 3betting light.

In games where I expect my 3bets to get folds, I will absolutely open up and start 3betting light. And in games where I'm playing with people who will 3bet and then overfold to my 4bets, I do 4bet light as well. However, the point I'm trying to make here is this. You made a very specific point: that you can't "have it both ways", i.e. you can't believe KK is not a profitable 4bet for value while also believing that you can't 4bet light. I'm saying that it is at least possible that yes, both of these can be true against certain kinds of opponents. If you have a hard time believing this, go back and look in the old thread for an example. I had a hard time believing this too the first time I thought about it--that's why I made a thread!