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[1/3] KK on a monotone flop [1/3] KK on a monotone flop

09-16-2020 , 10:06 PM
This was posted by someone else at a different forum. I'm reposting it here with the original poster's permission.

Quote:
1/3NL
One limp, Hero Late position raise $20 with KxKc, Button Call, Villain defend in BB

Hero and Villain stacks about equal $550 deep

Flop 2c3c5c

Checks to hero, hero bet $50, folds to villain, Villain raise $125, heads up, hero ??


[Villain was a] pretty solid young player who was friendly and talkative throughout the whole session. Didn't see him bluff before but I thought he was capable of doing so given the right circumstances.

Last edited by Garick; 09-17-2020 at 09:15 AM. Reason: removed results, added stakes
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-16-2020 , 10:22 PM
As I saw results, I won't comment. I edited them out. For both you and the original OP, please don't post results, including hero's last action, as they bias people's responses.

I'm assuming this is 2/5?
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-16-2020 , 10:46 PM
I think this is one of those spots where you go broke if they have AcXc, you try to draw out on their already made lower flushes (78s, 89s, 9Ts, TJs, AQs, AJs, ATs, QJs, QTs), and you call for the implied odds against their flopped sets. So calling is fine IMO. Just prepare to go broke. V can also have AcXx as well. Call and see a ttuurrnn.

I'd argue for a smaller sizing OTF IMO as well.

Last edited by valiantcalls; 09-16-2020 at 10:53 PM.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-16-2020 , 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
As I saw results, I won't comment. I edited them out. For both you and the original OP, please don't post results, including hero's last action, as they bias people's responses.

I'm assuming this is 2/5?
Garick, thanks. It's 1/3.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-16-2020 , 11:21 PM
Also I'd like to add, it is truly an awful spot to be in as not only are you unlikely to improve to a flush on the turn, V will most definitely barrel his value hands and may likely barrel his semi-bluffs, leaving you with not so easy decisions.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-16-2020 , 11:48 PM
Typically, you want to bet extremely small on monotone flops like this one as the initial raiser. I won’t get into the reasons here, unless someone wants me to.

So as played, I’d fold- but normally I’d bet/call assuming I bet something like $15.

Checking is best here multi-way. Yes, occasionally you won’t face aggression and people will argue that LLSNL is all about fat value etc. but even in practice there aren’t very many run outs where you can (profitably) get three streets from worse without value-cutting ourselves a lot as well.

Also, we’ll want to have some strong hands like this one when we check so that if a V decides to stab wide here we’ll be fine. Even if they’re not sophisticated enough to exploit us, it’s nice to be protected here just in case they’re getting out of line more than they should.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-16-2020 , 11:50 PM
Seems like he’d have a lot more semi-bluffs than made flushes the way he’s played this, won’t he? Can’t imagine a made nut flush check/raising (or at least I wouldn’t, since they don’t mind you catching a spade and improving). And most weaker flushes, other than maybe QJs or JTs, don’t seem strong enough to raise on the flop (but maybe I’m just a nit).

I’d default to a smaller fraction of the pot for our flop bet, since OTF I’m nowhere near being happily committed. Maybe $20. As played I call flop and probably fold to a large turn bet if unimproved. But don’t really love any of our options.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-17-2020 , 12:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdfsgf
And most weaker flushes, other than maybe QJs or JTs, don’t seem strong enough to raise on the flop (but maybe I’m just a nit).
.
Why QJs and JTs specifically? Are you assuming BB doesn't have other Qx and Jx in their calling range?
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-17-2020 , 08:51 AM
BB range should be wider and thus include all of the made flushes, sets and 54s.

As played, call to see a turn, fold unimproved to reasonable sizing.

Flop - seems like a great spot to check multi-way holding the Kc.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-17-2020 , 09:19 AM
Quote:
BB range should be wider and thus include all of the made flushes, sets and 54s.
Surely not that wide? We don't really think he's calling a 8.6BB raise from the BB with T4s, do we? And don't we think that sets and 45 would check-raise larger (if at all) due to how vulnerable they are?
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-17-2020 , 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Surely not that wide? We don't really think he's calling a 8.6BB raise from the BB with T4s, do we? And don't we think that sets and 45 would check-raise larger (if at all) due to how vulnerable they are?
No, not THAT wide

Probably 5-6 combos of AXs, then all scs down to 87, an maybe suited 1 gaps to 97. Especially, if the V had a read (fold) on the limper.

As far as the raise sizing, it's debatable without a read.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-17-2020 , 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamekura
Why QJs and JTs specifically? Are you assuming BB doesn't have other Qx and Jx in their calling range?
I guess QTs as well. But QJs/JTs/QTs all seem far more likely than Q9s, J9s and below.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-18-2020 , 01:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Surely not that wide? We don't really think he's calling a 8.6BB raise from the BB with T4s, do we?
6.6BB.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-18-2020 , 01:51 AM
Gotta call the raise. Unlikely he's raising with the nuts, so you're live with a club draw if he has a smaller flush or a set. If he's semi-bluffing, you're probably ahead. You're in position and try to figure it out based on his reaction and bet sizing on the turn.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-18-2020 , 11:54 AM
The decision to flat is without a doubt the easiest decision ith (Someone who appears to be solid, younger, and feels comfortable at the table, etc) he could have a lot of bluffs there and get creative on a scary board for hero's range. It's an easy flat, and I'm cbetting here with an over pair and the 2ndnfd rather than either letting it get checked through or letting someone else decide what the pot size is gonna be. His flopped flushes is so small a part of his flatting range pf.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-18-2020 , 12:20 PM
I'm fine with preflop although might go a tad smaller to setup just that much more manageable SPR at these stacks. SPR of 9 ain't horrendous although we did end up OOP.

We shouldn't feel committed at this SPR so I really don't like our big almostPSB flop bet which easily works towards commitment. If betting, I wouldn't go more than a 1/2 PSB. And with us having the second nut flush draw it's not as if we fear the draws tremendously, so I think it's also fine checking here too (playing a smaller pot if we remain UI and focusing on getting to showdown, and thinking of perhaps building a bigger pot if we improve).

Kinda a high variance spot facing the check/raise. If he's got the Ac he's probably slightly ahead equity-wise with his over + nutflushdraw + gutshot. If he has a set he's also ahead (although we do have a lotta outs). Is he really doing this when crushed, say with red 99? So doubtful we're ever in a crushing position. Getting over 3:1 I'd guess it's a sigh call to attempt to bink a flush / set and otherwise UI evaluate what happens on the turn.

GcluelessNLnoobG
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-19-2020 , 10:07 PM
NFD's are the only draws I ever see people semi-bluff, coupled with the fact that you say he's some kind of reg or whatever and he definitely can do it. That said I prefer a call to underrep our hand. This enables us to control the pot, hit a draw which may be best, and pick off any river bluffs.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-20-2020 , 10:50 AM
Ok, at this point I'm going to add back hero's last action, as no one has advocated for it and ask folks' thoughts on the line.

Hero shoves over the C/R. Thoughts.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-20-2020 , 11:43 AM
We're turning our hand into a bluff. I'd rather bluff with a hand that can't call. I don't think villain stacks off with a single worse hand (Ac is beating us)
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-20-2020 , 12:26 PM
Y, the shove eliminates him putting more $ OTT as a bluff/semi-bluff.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-20-2020 , 01:44 PM
I think it's pretty bad, V has already repped a made flush/flopped set/2pair/AcXx IMO, there is probably little to no fold equity and you are probably getting it in behind most of Vs range.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-20-2020 , 06:38 PM
Pretty sick high-equity bluff lol. Kind of feels like an “I don’t know what to do shove” though?

I think it’s fairly ambitious after the large flop bet that our range can’t withstand in the first place.

Last edited by RoadtoPro; 09-20-2020 at 06:44 PM.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-20-2020 , 09:33 PM
nobody has advocated for a jam because it's bad.
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-20-2020 , 09:48 PM
I wasn't advocating for it either. I just want OP to get feedback on that move. Could you expand on why you think it's bad?
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote
09-20-2020 , 11:35 PM
I'd like OP to explain how it could be good
[1/3] KK on a monotone flop Quote

      
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