1-3NL, Wednesday afternoon session.

H is 40yo white guy. Pretty aggressive preflop, but I've been card-dead for the past hour or so. Haven't three-bet this session, and haven't been caught in any bluffs. Image is probably TAG, to the degree that matters. ($1000)

V1 is 30-something white guy, headphones and sunglasses. Immediately to my left (I'm waiting for a chance to change seats). Clearly a reg who takes the game seriously. Not a game-crusher, as far as I can tell. Even though he has position on me, he hasn't really been using it. Mostly staying out of my way when I get in a pot, occasionally calling my preflop raises but then playing straightforward on the flop. He's in for a couple of buy-ins, and has been getting into a few leveling battles with V2. ($350)

V2 is 40-something asian guy. Likes to play a lot of pots, will take plenty of stabs at the pot if he senses weakness. He's two to my left. We haven't been in any significant pots together. ($640)

V2 opens utg for $15. This can be pocket pairs, suited connectors, suited aces, or two face cards. Folds around to H in the sb, with KK. I make it $50, expecting this will fold V1 and induce a call from V2's entire range. If I'd been more active recently, I would've made it $60-65, but I think the three-bet here already screams strength.

V1 surprises me by calling. V2 gets a look on his face that seems to indicate "well I guess I'm getting pot odds" and calls as well. I range V1 mostly on pocket pairs and suited connectors.

Flop ($150) is J95. Very wet board. I'm ahead of their ranges though. I bet $100. V1 folds. V2 calls without a ton of consideration. I don't think he has a set or a combo draw. But flush draws, nut draws, and top pair are all in his range.

Turn ($350) is Q. One of the worst cards in the deck for me. Flush got there, straight draw got there, JQ improved, etc.

Given V's habit of attacking weakness, I think if I check this turn, he's going to take a stab and I'm going to need to fold. I also still think I'm ahead of most of his range. So I decide to bet $200 and put him to the test.

V has a look of genuine displeasure for a moment (hard to describe the tell... but it looked like how you would act if you liked your hand but not for that price). Then he goes into the tank for quite awhile. Then he shoves all-in for another $289.

The pot is now laying me $1039-to $289. I have a single overpair with no flush redraw. I don't think he has the nuts. Do I have the equity to call here? If so, is there a place in the hand where I should have bet differently to avoid the borderline pot commitment?

Yeah, seat change please. I'm less concerned about being OOP to somewhat shorter / straightforward V1 than I am the much deeper / tricky V2.

I would consider just flatting preflop. We haven't been active this session, so a 3bet may turn our hand face up deep and OOP to a tricky villain. In order to setup a trivial commitment spot with this stack we'll have to 3bet to almost $100 which will mostly just win $19 preflop. There's no one else in the pot and there's no significant dead money to go after / field to narrow down, and we don't exactly hate life if the BB comes along as a third player (but he may often just fold too). Let's just play a small pot OOP and let stabby guy do his stabby thing and passively win a medium pot off of him postflop. But that's me, and I'll be in the minority.

This is kinda stoopid spot we can get ourselves into. The deep guy ended up getting about 20:1 IO to call the 3bet and see a flop in position (not terrible by any means), and now the SPR is just 4 on a drawy board. Can we really do anything other than just PSB to jam safe turns? But that ain't great given the IO we offered preflop. If we're going to get ourselves into committed spots we have to 3bet large to prevent offering good IO; otherwise, just call and play a disguised hand in a high SPR pot (where we'll never have commitment issues).

Postflop is just really tough to play and a super gross spot (whatever you do at this point on any street sucks). But it's all cuz of preflop and "I haz KK", imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Bigger pre. I think I sigh call off the shove. Probably just enough combo draws there given odds. Things like jc tx. Not exactly loving it.

Pre is OK. I go bigger on the flop, though. It's such a wet board, and vs. two players, I want them to pay for their draws.

As played, I call vs. this guy /w these odds. He could easily have AQ w/ the Ac or similar. (Granted, he could have QQ or JJ, but I'm still calling.)

If you believe he is going to attack weakness, you could consider checking on the turn to induce him. Then shove.

As played, the "I don't like the board" face followed by a shove is rarely a good sign. Considering SPR, I'd puke call, loose the hand and ask for a seat change.

Actually, this is very true. When I first read it, for some reason I read "pleasure" instead of "displeasure" (I'm just a positive thinker). That questioning or unhappy look followed by a shove is almost always the nuts or close to it. However, I still call this guy.

One of my friends was on TV in the WSOP and gave that exact tell, then shoved -- yet he was still called while he held the nuts. Hysterical to watch.

It is the classic Mike Caro, "I can't call, so I have to shove" tell. Super strength. He doesn't expect you to fold getting over 3:1. As Caro also wrote, "when a villain wants you to do something, disappoint them." I'd let it go.

That reaction sounds so strong haha. I’m finding a fold.

Hate to say it, but in 1/3 on that turn, I might just check and give up to strength.

It smashes V's range so hard that the weakest part of his range (raised UTG and then call 3bet) still has a ton of equity against KK.

Easy to give it up in PLO in similar spots, can't see how it would be harder in hold'em.

Well, Sklansky for one is with you. In fact I believe he even used KK as the hand in question to illustrate his dictum: "Don't tell your opponents what you have and then turn around and give them the right price to beat it."

By 3-betting for the first time all session from the worst spot at the table, you're giving the impression to these two guys that you have a monster. But for $35 more to win $700, and with position, V2 in particular has every incentive to call with basically his entire range and hope to spike something.

His quick call on the flop probably means he's drawing. But again, it's just $100 more to win $700, and on top of that he probably assumes he can take down the pot on any number of scare cards ... because he knows (or thinks he knows) exactly what you have.

At that point, whatever you do on the turn is asking for trouble - so the mistake had to have been made already.

I think pre you need to either flat (as gross as that sounds) and be content to play a small pot OOP, or go significantly bigger - like $75. His math on $60 to win $700 is a lot different than $35, and when he calls the bloated pot makes it easy to GII by the turn on most runouts.

And given the PF action, I might just check the flop. Sure, let him think we missed - if he wants to bluff he'll feel he won't have to bet much to get a fold, meaning you can play pot control for a street or two.

You have to call now but you severely overplayed your hand/range.

Flatting pre is so bad that I won't even engage the ridiculous arguments for it above. I heavily suggest you ignore them completely. With healthy stacks, the best thing to do is have a mixed linear 3b range from this spot.

i would do what you would do with AK on this flop.

i would check the turn and probably fold depending on bet size.

I strongly disagree with anyone who says we're flatting pre here. I'm check/folding this turn, but as played, I call since your odds are so good.

This is all very helpful. Thanks. Two additional thoughts:

1. First, I know the classic Caro weak-when-strong tell. FWIW, I'm like 95% confident this wasn't it. He didn't do a performative sigh, lean back, ponder/complain, then shove. He had a brief tick where he was trying to get his composure but was clearly uncomfortable, and he did a thing with his hands that I didn't write down, but had me noting in-hand, "okay, not the nuts." Then he tanked. Then he shoved.

The problem I'm faced with, I think, is that even if we eliminate the nuts, there are still a ton of hands in his range that beat my overpair, and there aren't many that I'm ahead of. I think he can be nervous-but committed on this board with 10-8suited, 10x-Kc, JQ, and small flushes. I think he can hate his hand but not want to fold Jx10c, Qx10c, JxAc, and JxKc.

(...Which, now that I type that out, is enough combos that I have to sigh-call.)


2. Just to elaborate, the plan in making it $50 was that the bb would fold and I could then use his stabby habit against him to win a medium pot. I think that's a reasonable long-term plan in a situation like this one. He's going to call my $50, and I can then get 1-2 streets of value on most runouts by either firing at low flops, letting him float me, and then check-calling the turn/river, or by checking the flop to induce a turn or river bet from him. The plan went haywire when the BB unexpectedly called, setting up a larg pot with an awkward SPR OOP.

It sounds like you had a plan pre, executed it, but then didn't adjust accordingly when the plan went awry:

You knew you were OOP to 2 opponents with one pair in a large pot, but you let the "I'm probably still ahead, gotta bet" thinking take over. That's what builds big pots, and big pots are not what you want OOP with this hand on this board.

also maybe im being results oriented but in my experience when Im OOP and i act like i always miss the flop i get better results as someone usually stabs with a range im doing fine against, so I can then either CR when shallow or c/c if too deep to CR.

So let's go through Harrington's old hand strength list. He probably doesn't have the nuts. He might have the near nuts with Kcxc hand. If you have the nut flush, he has one out. That would stop anyone for a moment. His play would make sense with this hand. A hand of some value (a straight) might also feel like he has to play this way, too. A bluff catcher (TP plus a draw) would call by definition, not raise. Finally there's the bluff. You can't completely discount this, but this is only going to be a 10%-20% of his range.

You only beat a bluff that would make this bet. You're not good often enough to call. In the heat of the moment, it is easy to make up a lot of hands that you can beat to justify the call. And when you fold, you can think that he has lots of bluffs you could have beat to justify the call. But they aren't fully in his range.

$200 is a big bet in 1/3, like most have already pointed out, it won't be an easy call without AcXc.

KXcc and TXcc would feel committed to shove, but it won't feel good either.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

Results: even discounting nutted hands, I decided I was too far behind too much of his range. I folded.

discussed the hand with V1 a couple hours later, after V2 had left and I had taken V1's seat. He was convinced I should've called because the guy was so bluffy and aggressive. I found myself reevaluating whether I had put too few pair+draw combos in his turn range.

I think Mook is right that the main lesson here is that I had a plan, didn't adjust, then built a big pot while I was vulnerable and uncomfortable. Not great, not great...