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1/3 KK on AKQ two tone 200ishBB 1/3 KK on AKQ two tone 200ishBB

09-25-2013 , 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blufforfold
I guess this is why you don't post results too early. Everyone says call, once results come in, everyone says fold.
Didn't read results. You really should wait 72 hours.

Easy fold to be quite honest when you do the math.

QQ/AA re-raise preflop so that pretty much leaves them out.

You have KK and there is a K on the flop, so there is either 0 or 1 combos of AKs and 3 combos of AKo.

There are 2-3 combos of AQs and 6-7 combos of AQo

So you beat 11-14 combos of 2 pair.

There are 16 combos of JT.

Now ask yourself. Which hands are villains most likely to check/raise the flop with and then overbet shove $500 the turn with at a low stakes game? A large % of the time, the range is going to weighted towards the nuts.

If we give an opponent's weighted range to 80% JT and 20% 2pair, that means it's 13 combos of JT and 2-3 combos of 2 pair. 13/3 = ~4.5 times that he's going to show JT to 2 pair.

Board: Ac Ks Qs 4h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.273% 37.27% 00.00% 738 0.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 62.727% 62.73% 00.00% 1242 0.00 { AdQc, AhQc, AsQc, JTo }

12 combos of JTo to 3 combos of AQo (showing 2 pair)

According to you, pot was $250 on the turn. He shoves $480 in. $480 to win $730, we would need 1.52 to 1 to make a call break-even which is 39.68%.

So, unless this villain played his draws very aggressively and/or overvalues 2pairs, then yes, this turns into a fold. Maybe not as easy as a slam dunk as I said before, but very rarely do people NOT have the nuts here when they ship $500 into the middle in a 1/2-1/3 game.
1/3 KK on AKQ two tone 200ishBB Quote
09-25-2013 , 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBpro
Didn't read results. You really should wait 72 hours.

Easy fold to be quite honest when you do the math.

QQ/AA re-raise preflop so that pretty much leaves them out.

You have KK and there is a K on the flop, so there is either 0 or 1 combos of AKs and 3 combos of AKo.

There are 2-3 combos of AQs and 6-7 combos of AQo

So you beat 11-14 combos of 2 pair.

There are 16 combos of JT.

Now ask yourself. Which hands are villains most likely to check/raise the flop with and then overbet shove $500 the turn with at a low stakes game? A large % of the time, the range is going to weighted towards the nuts.

If we give an opponent's weighted range to 80% JT and 20% 2pair, that means it's 13 combos of JT and 2-3 combos of 2 pair. 13/3 = ~4.5 times that he's going to show JT to 2 pair.

Board: Ac Ks Qs 4h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.273% 37.27% 00.00% 738 0.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 62.727% 62.73% 00.00% 1242 0.00 { AdQc, AhQc, AsQc, JTo }

12 combos of JTo to 3 combos of AQo (showing 2 pair)

According to you, pot was $250 on the turn. He shoves $480 in. $480 to win $730, we would need 1.52 to 1 to make a call break-even which is 39.68%.

So, unless this villain played his draws very aggressively and/or overvalues 2pairs, then yes, this turns into a fold. Maybe not as easy as a slam dunk as I said before, but very rarely do people NOT have the nuts here when they ship $500 into the middle in a 1/2-1/3 game.
Much better reply

However this villian is definitely the type of player to over-value 2p or TP+GS or TP+FD. He was relatively unknown, but that much was obvious. I don't even think he realized how big of an overbet it was. He just wanted to go all-in.
1/3 KK on AKQ two tone 200ishBB Quote
09-25-2013 , 05:01 PM
I have something to add to this thread although it may be more of an additional question than a comment.

What bet size would villain and make here less than the over bet shove?

If he bets, and gets called, say...$200 then the pot becomes $650 and he had $300 behind, right? If the flush card comes it could kill his action, if a J/T comes he loses a lot of equity (in his mind he may be ranging you on AJ/AT). In order to leave himself with a PSB otr he has to bet around $85 into $200. $250+85+85=420 and leaves him 395 or so. Not saying all villains want to leave a PSB for the river, and in fact when I want to play for stacks I try to size so that a river shove, if I feel a turn shove won't work and a river shove has a chance to be called, is about 1/2 PSB at most.

Just curious as to others thoughts on villains most optimal sizing on the turn. I think shoving for 1.9x pot isn't as bad as it looks. But I'd probably have opted for a $190 bet (less than $200 for psychological reasons the same way I would bet 95 instead of 100 when wanting a call). That would've created a pot of $630 and a river shove of $290 offering about 3.1:1 odds on the river.
1/3 KK on AKQ two tone 200ishBB Quote
09-25-2013 , 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBpro
this is the easiest slam dunk fold ever.
Ya showing results ends up havin comments like the above show up.

The hand needed to be committed on the flop then you would of gotten ur money in with more equity, but I def agree that recreational players do try to bet opponents out when the have it.
1/3 KK on AKQ two tone 200ishBB Quote
09-25-2013 , 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNTravis
I have something to add to this thread although it may be more of an additional question than a comment.

What bet size would villain and make here less than the over bet shove?

If he bets, and gets called, say...$200 then the pot becomes $650 and he had $300 behind, right? If the flush card comes it could kill his action, if a J/T comes he loses a lot of equity (in his mind he may be ranging you on AJ/AT). In order to leave himself with a PSB otr he has to bet around $85 into $200. $250+85+85=420 and leaves him 395 or so. Not saying all villains want to leave a PSB for the river, and in fact when I want to play for stacks I try to size so that a river shove, if I feel a turn shove won't work and a river shove has a chance to be called, is about 1/2 PSB at most.

Just curious as to others thoughts on villains most optimal sizing on the turn. I think shoving for 1.9x pot isn't as bad as it looks. But I'd probably have opted for a $190 bet (less than $200 for psychological reasons the same way I would bet 95 instead of 100 when wanting a call). That would've created a pot of $630 and a river shove of $290 offering about 3.1:1 odds on the river.
Stack sizes aren't exact by any means. Nor is pot size.

And I think your logic is flawed, why do you want to have a PSB on the river?? If anything having 1/2 pot and a flush card comes its better we have 1/2 pot not PSB.
1/3 KK on AKQ two tone 200ishBB Quote

      
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