Villain Unknown. He's late 50's white male with some kind of company polo shirt on. He's got the biggest stack at the table but only $450 so that doesn't mean much. He's to my immediate left in seat 9 next to the dealer. He's folded the first 5 hands since I sat down and this is a limp happy table (3 known villains are chronic limpers) so he's not "here to see flops for cheap" like a lot of guys his age.

Hero unknown image to villain. 40 y/o white dude. I've folded my first 5 hands but I doubt he's payed attention. I started with $225 and have $221 to start the hand.

2 happy limpers and I make it $15 with KJ in the CO. Villain calls OTB, sb calls, 2 limpers call.

Flop (~$80) K83
Pretty good flop for my hand. However what I notice more than the flop is Villain physically shifting in his chair from kind of facing the dealer to straight forward upright facing the pot. No draws so I don't feel the need to go big on the flop. Checks to hero who bets $40. Villain tanks for 10 seconds and calls, rest fold.

Turn (~$160) 4
Bet/fold, bet/call, check/fold, check/call, check/raise? We got ~$175 left.

Board has literally 0 draws on it.
We are likely only gettting 2 streets of value from worse hands here.
I'm fine with it being the flop and river, or flop and turn.

I'd likely default to flop and river.
If we do bet, it's likely a bet/fold as he should ever be raising with worse here.

I'd check flop to induce bluffs from V and get turn and river value from worse. As played I'd c/c a small bet on the turn.

I see V is ip but I don't think a late 50s white guy is going to bluff 5-way just because it was checked to him otf.



The likely hands Hero loses to (AK/KQ) I don't think are raising at any point and I don't think will go for thin value with 1 pair otr. The likely hands Hero beats at SD (KT/K9) aren't folding ott and aren't turning into a bluff otr. So against both of those hands (a somewhat defensive line against AK/KQ and a value line against KT/K9) the best line seems to be bet ott (obv folding to a raise) and check down otr.

consider a flop check rather than a 1/2 psb

Grunching …

C/F.

Calling a ½ PSB will commit 60% of ES. Calling an innocent turn to C/F river seems to make little sense. Stacking off with this TP/3K vs. this type of V seems spewy.

Hero bet 4-way flop after raising pre so V knows we have at least TP. Although we have little history there is a physical read noted. Would his type of image bet turn with a worse hand? I don’t think so. The board is as dry as you can get, so a hand like KTs is more likely to check, play ip, pot control and potentially get SD value on the river.

Right, I was the preflop aggressor so I think this guy tries to bluff at the pot close to zero. If he has A8 he just checks and hopes to spike an ace or 8 on the turn.


At this point I'm not very confident putting KT/K9 in this guys cold calling a raise range but I was pretty confident about AK and KQ being in his range as well as 88/33.

That was 100% my thinking in game at the time. I planned on checking any non-diamond and non-jack turn with the given tell + his perceived range.

Decent chance SB or one of the limpers stab at the pot on turn blanks if flop checks through. The tell also sways it to a check since he's the one guy hero can't get 2+ streets of value from.

What's the max BI? Any reason we're not topped off?

If stacks get larger (over 100bbs), we'll have to consider not sitting to the direct right of the other deepstack at the table.

With this stack size at a loose table, I would actually just overlimp. I hate the fact our smallish raise did not narrow the field, but even if we did manage to narrow the field, KJ is not a great hand to setup an SPR where we are totally fistpumpy about getting it in postflop with TP. I think this is a pretty easy overlimp.

What a gross spot now thanks to preflop. TPmehishK with an SPR < 3 (i.e. no wiggle room at all) in a 5way pot (where any joker could have flopped the goods). I don't feel like committing, and yet any bet seems to be getting me on my way there. FWIW, I don't give any weight whatsoever to any physical tells the villain is giving off; if you can distinguish his butt shift from KQ vs KT, then you are wasting your talents playing poker.

Anyhoo, make a plan on the flop (even though we should have made a plan preflop). If you feel committed, then commit (i.e. start betting, probably towards the bigger side, and never fold because you really can't after putting in large percentages of your stack). If you don't feel committed, then don't commit (i.e. bet very small, or even attempt to let it check thru, and probably fold if anyone plays back or there is decent action).

As played, you have a ~PSB left on the turn with TP and no draws came in. It looks like you're plan is to stack off (although I'm pretty sure you didn't have any plan all along).

Gplan.the.hand.G

Max is $300. I start with $225 and evaluate the table for 1-2 rounds before pulling more $25's out of my pocket.

Like I said above, I'm only 5 hands in and in evaluation mode. Not sure if guy to my left is OMC (which is fine, I just fold to any strength of his), bad loose passive, tight aggressive, tight passive, or what. The only person who does as much seat changing and table changing as me is eldiesel.

[QUOTE=gobbledygeek;43588310]
With this stack size at a loose table, I would actually just overlimp. I hate the fact our smallish raise did not narrow the field, but even if we did manage to narrow the field, KJ is not a great hand to setup an SPR where we are totally fistpumpy about getting it in postflop with TP. I think this is a pretty easy overlimp.[quote]
I'm not a fan of overlimping in position with the best hand especially because of the reasons you stated above. When I have the best hand and I can get half the table to put in $15 instead of $3, why would I go for the $3?

As far as the raise being smallish that might be true. After 3 years of $1/2 no-limit our casino changed to $1/3 no-limit last week. Everyone who plays is still figuring out raising sizes.

Thought that when someone physically moves closer to the pot it's a sign of strength, maybe I'm wrong and all the books are wrong.

I did have a plan. Like I said it was a limp happy table. The first of the 2 limpers I have 2 years playing experience with. Once he limps he calls a raise with his entire range and he's limping 62s, 74s and all kinds of garbage trying to flop monsters. He's 100% straightforward and will c/f flops he misses. The second limper I'd play with the day before and he was another overly frequent limper with hands like K5s, J6s, etc...calling a raise if other limpers called and giving up on most flops.

I completely planned the hand. Play a hand in position with betting initiative and card advantage against weak fit-or-fold limpers. When more people come through than expected I have to change my plan to rely more on card strength and position and less on bluffing. The flop comes pretty good for my hand and I know 100% I can get value from limper 1 or 2 if they caught any piece of it including bottom pair.

Once the guy to my left calls and gives off the sign of strength I re-evaluate things. I change my plan (as I had said above) to continue betting a diamond or jack turn. Instead of 1.5 - 2 streets of value I know have to consider I might just be value owning myself by betting against this guy.

LOL at clamoring I didn't have a plan.

Ok, if that's the case, let me rephrase that: if the plan is to see a multiway bloated flop where we have no wiggle room postflop with TPmehK, and to put in 1/4 of our stack by the turn, where we now only have a ~PSB remaining, only to then consider folding when no draws come in, then I don't like this plan.

My plan would start preflop where I would decide whether I want to (a) play a very multiway limped pot with a high SPR with a nice multiway hand or (b) play a HU pot where I'm looking to cbet steal the pot or commit if I hit TP thanks to putting in ~10% of my stack. I prefer plan (a) over plan (b) in this case due to hand strength (i.e. we don't have a great kicker) and number of limpers (i.e. might be difficult to thin field), but I don't hate plan (b), although I do hate any other plan. I understand it can be difficult getting a handle on raise sizes when a room changes it's 1/2 NL game to a 1/3 NL game (our room experienced the same thing).

If we went with plan (a) or plan (b), then postflop becomes brain dead easy to play in most cases; it's only if we choose another plan (or get a very unexpected result) where things get sucky. And we're in a sucky spot now.

GavoidingsuckyspotsG