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Old 01-13-2018, 02:44 AM   #1
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1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

Normally, a hand like QJo is always an open in late position. But what do you do when there's 4 limpers before you, who could be limping anything from garbage (75o, J2s) to premiums (88, AQs)? Do we fold, limp behind or raise? And do we still go with our "standard" sizing of ~$27 or is that too excessive?
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:39 AM   #2
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

I call in the blinds personally with it, but I do raise with it on the button. One must be careful though as I think it's a trap hand. Most people here disagree with me. I think they'd say raise in all 3 spots. I try to learn from these fellows though who are better than me.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:21 AM   #3
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

QJo is not a standard open in LP.

What are effective stack sizes?

If you have a reason to open light from LP in 1/3 live it is better to do it when there have only been 1 or 2 limpers who happen to be weak players. With 3 players or more, you're unlikely to encounter calls and you'll be multiway with an easily dominated hand.
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:51 AM   #4
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

In a typical 1/2 or 1/3 game, this is usually one of the biggest issue I see with players. The concept of "punishing the limpers" is greatly misused and misunderstood at low live stakes games. Online player fold preflop. Live players do not. In order to "punish the limpers" in a live game, you have to raise to an amount that exceeds that player's pain threshold. In each game (and to each player sometimes), this is different. In the game I play, this amount is $35. This will usually narrow the field to HU or 3 handed. Anything less, you are seeing the flop 7 handed.

Now that you have successfully narrowed the field, you now have a huge problem. QJ off is doing terribly vs the Villain's calling range. No problem. If we miss the flop, so does the Villain right? Yes, but here comes the 2nd largest issue that live players misunderstand. Cbetting live works dramatically less than online. Fit or fold rarely exists in a live game.

So, to answer the question.

Never fold. Limp behind. This will lead to a high variance result postflop, but we have 3 advantages over our typical recreational player at these stakes.

1. Position on all remaining streets.
2. We value bet properly.
3. They don't.

Gl
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:55 AM   #5
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

"QJo is not a standard open in LP. - Nogyong. - Agree. I don't o/r QJo until in the CO which has a 24% range, which is heavily weighted towards suited hands.

If you raise to $27, won't you get a lot of the garbage that you're way ahead of to correctly fold pre? Is that what you're looking for? 3 of 4 folds & guy with 88 calling? AQs & KQs call a $27 raise?

If I am going to consider flatting pre in the HJ, I consider the following:

1. How bad do the limpers play post-flop, i.e., are they sticky with weak made hands & willing to chase weak draws.
2. What kind of players are behind me? Will I often be faced with an isolation raise.
3. Do the players give me respect for a made hand otf when the flop comes AT9r/KT8r/QT8r & I raise IP? I want to see last 2 streets for free if I don't improve ott.
The problem with all 3 of those flops, is that they all have a ten with a card relatively close, which means they often fit my opponents ranges. That's an inherent problem with QJo. Along with having little to no flush equity, it often hits other players' hands when it hits ours.

Since you only see a rainbow flop about 40% of the time & a flop with 2 of suit 55% of the time, I much prefer SCs. Not just because I can flop a flush draw, but if I do flop a flush draw with a str8 draw, I've got 2 blockers to someone else's higher flush draw. In addition, if my suit is s & it flop is I have a BDFD & don't have to be concerned with the turn coming with one [] of the 3 suits that came otf. When the flop is , I don't have to worry about a ott.

If you pit yourself against 2, who limp a range of:
22-88, A2s+, ATo+, K2s+, K9o+, all the way down to where they are playing a total of 37.5% of their hands, you have 36% equity. 3% more than your fair share. Your equity going to the flop is 35.5%.

Your equity doesn't change much going to the flop when you're suited, but it jumps 3.5% going to the river.

I can't think of a time I flatted in this situation, except when I've been card dead & want to be seen putting money in to see a flop. If I play it, it's going to be for a raise & not vs. limpers who limp with premiums like AJs/AQo/KQs, etc. I want pre-flop fold equity, or HU vs. a bad sticky player, or bad fit or fold player.

I know a few lag players who will raise to $20 pre in LP with K7s after several limpers & if he gets callers, will continue to play strong if he flops a 7 and a BDFD. Sometimes they'll run $300 up to $1k in a few hours and I'll think "Man, I wish I could do that!" Other times they'll burn thru $600 & leave and I'll think "Man, must be nice to have money to burn."

I'm thinking of 1 such person, who if he runs up ~$800-$1K profit, he racks up, no matter how long he's been there, obviously headed to the pits.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:58 AM   #6
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

This is one of the fundamental challenges in live poker.

Paratroopers answer is very good. I suggest people snippet it.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:11 AM   #7
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

Once you get better playing post flop, QJ should become a standard open in LP. I used to be afraid that the limpers will call with hands that dominate me, but I dont worry about that anymore. Why? Because I got better playing post flop.

When there are 2-3 limpers, it depends. Sometimes I raise enough to get it HU. Sometimes I limp. Sometimes I fold.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:13 AM   #8
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

As Ava pointed out, this is a very important and good question.

What it comes down to is people's limping ranges (it's very important to be paying attention to showdowns) and whether you have any fe when raising. If you're playing on a table which limp calls hands like a5s and kts (or better) then folding seems best. If people are limping a7o and 34o then obviously raising is best. Once the number of limpers is >2 I would tighten up and only open strong multiway hands (78s+, 88+) and fold off suit combos. Obviously limp behind small pocket pairs (only in hj, co or btn) especially on tables with no limp fold range.

Sizing up to 25-30 after 4 limpers seems good, as long as it's with a tight range.

P.s qjoff is a standard lp open in 6max online play, not so much in this rake trap of a 1/3 game you're playing in.

Last edited by Eholeing; 01-13-2018 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:29 PM   #9
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

With the lack of FE and the very wide limping ranges that usually include better hands, I generally don't open mediocre hands over multiple limpers. Instead, I see a cheap flop with position and look to either play a big pot with 2p plus, a medium one with a TP that will usually outkick our Vs, or occasionally steal a small orphaned pot.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:35 PM   #10
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

Picking up ~5 BB’s rake free is a really good outcome.

I’d rather just fold pre than limp from the HJ. You’re just asking for somebody behind to bump this up to $30 and scoop up all that money.

Raise it up and play more cautious if BTN/CO flats your $25-30 raise.

If I was consistently getting QJo in LP I would say I ran pretty wel that session.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:08 PM   #11
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

In my earlier post I wrote "unlikely" instead of "likely" by mistake. Fixing that below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogyong View Post
With 3 players or more, you're unlikely likely to encounter calls and you'll be multiway with an easily dominated hand.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:12 PM   #12
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

Yup. If I raise to 30, I don't expect to take down the limps. I expect to be going 3-4 ways to the flop in a bloated pot with position, but a mediocre hand. That's not the end if the world, but it's not my dream situation either.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:43 PM   #13
Eholeing
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Picking up ~5 BB’s rake free is a really good outcome.
I realise this isn't the case for other games but op's game is raked pre
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:04 PM   #14
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
In a typical 1/2 or 1/3 game, this is usually one of the biggest issue I see with players. The concept of "punishing the limpers" is greatly misused and misunderstood at low live stakes games. Online player fold preflop. Live players do not. In order to "punish the limpers" in a live game, you have to raise to an amount that exceeds that player's pain threshold. In each game (and to each player sometimes), this is different. In the game I play, this amount is $35. This will usually narrow the field to HU or 3 handed. Anything less, you are seeing the flop 7 handed.

Now that you have successfully narrowed the field, you now have a huge problem. QJ off is doing terribly vs the Villain's calling range. No problem. If we miss the flop, so does the Villain right? Yes, but here comes the 2nd largest issue that live players misunderstand. Cbetting live works dramatically less than online. Fit or fold rarely exists in a live game.

So, to answer the question.

Never fold. Limp behind. This will lead to a high variance result postflop, but we have 3 advantages over our typical recreational player at these stakes.

1. Position on all remaining streets.
2. We value bet properly.
3. They don't.

Gl
I agree with this and would only add that rake/tip are another major consideration live.

If the majority of our positive outcomes are raise, c-bet, take it down, we should be aware of the price we are laying to do that with a few BBs taken out.

If we are attempting to steal the limps and blinds with a hand that has some mediocre value in case we get called, that's a bit better, but it doesn't sound like the OP had this in mind and I don't think it works out too well in most games, except in speciffic scenarios (cards have flashed, tells, knowing some of the players limp fold a lot, etc).
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:55 AM   #15
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Re: 1/3 - How does our BTN opening range adjust to limpers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
With the lack of FE and the very wide limping ranges that usually include better hands, I generally don't open mediocre hands over multiple limpers. Instead, I see a cheap flop with position and look to either play a big pot with 2p plus, a medium one with a TP that will usually outkick our Vs, or occasionally steal a small orphaned pot.
This.

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