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Old 06-01-2014, 06:13 PM   #1
GheeRoast
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1/3 home game - NFD Vs TAG and Fish

Game – 8 handed 1/3 home game. My first session here, so no prior reads on regular Vs and they don’t have any reads on me as well.

Hero (button) – 30 year old Indian guy. TAG image. I’ve been at the table for about 4 hours. Won a couple of big hands at showdown. Won a few open raised pots with c-bets and double barrels. I’ve rarely limp-called this entire session. Image is pretty solid. Also laid down hands when I knew I was behind. Stack size - $360

V1 (MP) – White late 20s. Been playing very tight and aware of position. I haven’t seen him get out of line. My guess for his stats are 15/8. Stack size - $400 (approx.)

V2 (CO) – Fish of the table. Lost 3 buy-ins already and is on tilt. Losing mainly due to his inability to fold top pair. Stack size - $112

Hand:
Hero (button) – A9 – Mandatory straddle on the button (if you have the "rock' which is worth $6).

Folds to V1 in MP- makes to $20. V2 in CO calls. Hero calls.

Flop ($64) – 1072
V1 bets $40, V2 announces ALL IN for $92.

Hero - ?

What is the optimal play here and why?
Thoughts appreciated.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:34 PM   #2
codfordinner
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Re: 1/3 home game - NFD Vs TAG and Fish

Really tough spot to me.
Can't decide if shove or call.
I don't think you should fold, you have a decent amount of outs if we think your Ace is good if it hits.
I think V2 isn't shoving with a club draw and would rather call the $40, so we know there are clubs in the deck..

I just don't know if we want to call and price V1 in for value, or shove to hope it goes heads up.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:56 PM   #3
PolProf
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I think I'm folding

v1 may reraise your flat and I'm not so sure an ace is good against him. Ak is certainly in his range with an 8% pfr stat

Against V2 an ace or club is good (assuming V1 doesn't call). Still you have to get back thru V1 if you flat.

In a choice between flatting or raising I think I choose door 3 and fold. If V1 has JJ-AA he's not folding and any ace he has has you dominated as well.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:57 PM   #4
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Shove.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:15 PM   #5
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A 15/8 player opens and it is immediately time to dump A9 preflop. Suited or not.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:30 PM   #6
GheeRoast
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Re: 1/3 home game - NFD Vs TAG and Fish

Quote:
Originally Posted by PolProf View Post
I think I'm folding

v1 may reraise your flat and I'm not so sure an ace is good against him. Ak is certainly in his range with an 8% pfr stat

Against V2 an ace or club is good (assuming V1 doesn't call). Still you have to get back thru V1 if you flat.

In a choice between flatting or raising I think I choose door 3 and fold. If V1 has JJ-AA he's not folding and any ace he has has you dominated as well.
I agree that flatting is the worst option for us. If I flat, I'm essentially turning my hand face up screaming flush draw and also giving V1 5.6:1 odds to call with his over pair to see a turn.

Can I not make him laydown his overpairs if I shove here?

He needs between 38-40% equity to make his call with overpairs break even.
And he has only 31% equity if he ranges me with sets, Ace high FDs, 8c9c and 8c6c.

I was torn between folding and shoving. i'd like to hear more feedback.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:36 PM   #7
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Re: 1/3 home game - NFD Vs TAG and Fish

Quote:
Originally Posted by cxy123 View Post
A 15/8 player opens and it is immediately time to dump A9 preflop. Suited or not.
Even if you're getting 3.5 to 1 preflop and you have position?
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Old 06-01-2014, 08:55 PM   #8
mtagliaf
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Re: 1/3 home game - NFD Vs TAG and Fish

If you have a plan regarding your villain, for example you know he's a cbet once and then done player, or he's very quick to bet/fold one pair hands, or he's extremely fit-or-fold, then yes, you can call preflop with an intentionally weaker hand than his range, but with evil intentions to win pots without your cards.

Using pot-odds preflop to justify calls is just about useless, IMO.

3.5:1 doesn't mean that we need to win 22% of the time, it means that, over time, we need the money we lose to be no more than 3.5 times the money we win over many hands. How are we going to win money with this hand? The one time we flop two pair against his TPTK, will we win enough to make up for all the times we float flop with top pair and fold to his turn barrel b/c he has AQ/AK? Is he going to go broke on 99x flops? Will our semibluffs work enough times, or is his range too tight so that he goes with his overpairs too often?
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GheeRoast View Post
Even if you're getting 3.5 to 1 preflop and you have position?
Yes. 3.5 to 1 what? What range are you putting him on? Against a range of TT+, AJ+ then yeah fold.

In this case your A may be live but you are not going to get any of his money b/c does not sound like V playing 15/8 stacks off with Kk when an A hits the board. So if V is in the hand with a A on the board chances are your A is dominated.

Your flush gets there by the river about 3% of the time. I think you need to be deeper to call 20$ preflop.

Frankly it doesn't sound like a V who is going to pay you off a lot with against this hand. My assumption is V is fit/fold. So playing this speculative hand that is behind V range is not great. I would almost rather have 86 here. Our something like that where V may be unable to fold an overpair to my weird two pair. Btw not a strategy a normally take so I fold this to this V.
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:41 PM   #10
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Re: 1/3 home game - NFD Vs TAG and Fish

Fold pre, but never folding the flop. Probably shoving it in
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Old 06-01-2014, 11:23 PM   #11
GheeRoast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtagliaf View Post
If you have a plan regarding your villain, for example you know he's a cbet once and then done player, or he's very quick to bet/fold one pair hands, or he's extremely fit-or-fold, then yes, you can call preflop with an intentionally weaker hand than his range, but with evil intentions to win pots without your cards.

Using pot-odds preflop to justify calls is just about useless, IMO.

3.5:1 doesn't mean that we need to win 22% of the time, it means that, over time, we need the money we lose to be no more than 3.5 times the money we win over many hands. How are we going to win money with this hand? The one time we flop two pair against his TPTK, will we win enough to make up for all the times we float flop with top pair and fold to his turn barrel b/c he has AQ/AK? Is he going to go broke on 99x flops? Will our semibluffs work enough times, or is his range too tight so that he goes with his overpairs too often?
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I do understand that taking a hand such as A9s to showdown against this V will not be profitable in the long run.

The plan is to win the hand before showdown against this V, by stealing when checked to or semi bluff raising suitable flops/turns. In the 10 or so hands where he was the PFR, he Cbet 100% of the time and c-f, b-f may be 3 or 4 hands on the turn after firing on the flop (against other players).

So let's say I had 5c6c or a SC type hand (clubs) in this hand instead. What would the correct play be here?
Shove ?
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:28 AM   #12
sheled007
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Re: 1/3 home game - NFD Vs TAG and Fish

shove OTF
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Old 06-02-2014, 03:14 PM   #13
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 home game - NFD Vs TAG and Fish

I would probably fold preflop. On the plus side, we do have position and a fish will be trapped in the hand, plus I guess we are getting better odds thanks to already having dead money in. But on the negative side, we've got a dominated hand, the fish is short, and we're only going to go 3way (with the other player a good player, so unlikely to make money off of him).

On the flop, against the fish we're already getting the necessary odds we need to call. I'm actually torn. Calling should actually look super strong to competent villain, so there's a chance he just overcalls (if he has an overpair, heck, he might even make a hero fold) with his good odds and then checks the turn to give us a free card (and I think we're actually ok with this, since if all-in player has a TP hand then we have to draw out anyways and there isn't much benefit if folding out QQ/etc). Although I guess there is nothing wrong with shoving either, but I'm not convinced it is better. ETA: If competent villain actually has us as weak when we just call, and then shoves the flop with an overpair, I'm guessing we easily have the odds to call (since nut flush draw is basically flipping with non-AA pairs / non-sets plus there's a crapload of dead money).

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 06-02-2014, 04:07 PM   #14
The Rumor
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Re: 1/3 home game - NFD Vs TAG and Fish

Fold pre

Run pokerstove on flop.
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