range betting is almost exclusively for IP.. not sure what the guys advocating it are thinking.

We are checking nutted hands (AK/KK/AA) because....?

There are a ton of straight draws and FDs on the board and a lot of worse hands that will call. We should almost never be checking nutted hands here, and if we do and start x/r’ing at any point it is super obvious you were trapping flop.

Yeah sure we can check some medium strength hands like Ax10c. It plays well on future streets and is not a 3 street game but can call multiple barrels. QQ is neither.

Getting PPs and 98s to fold and picking up all the money in the pot otf is a win. Checking and getting blown off the best hand a good amount isnt. At a decent freq PP wlll call flop and check down, and we win. Any two cards ten or higher arent folding, then we’re betting for pure value.

Just oversimplifying it, Basically when you check here you’re putting yourself in a position to make a lot of mistakes on all streets flop turn or river. Whereas you can range bet 1/3 here with impunity because no matter what your opponent does your range here is sos strong and +EV that he can make a lot of mistakes here overfolding, underfolding, overraising, underraising on any 3 streets

When i mean range betting it’s not 100%. I usually mean 90-95% and im checking a very carefully selected amount of hands that play well as checks. QQ here with a club, i mean it isnt bad but definitely not my to-go play

Lol.





Completely false.

If you dont know what the hell you’re talking about dont post snarky remarks

I know, but how many value hands can he have given his sizings and pre action?

AA specifically should be checked because it double blocks top pair. And no it's not super obvious I was trapping. Although I would hate to do it, I can turn Kx into a bluff on the river if I think he's going for thin value with a AQ/AJ and we are deep enough (on a non K turn obviously). I just own him so hard on this board and he has like no nutted hands. He's folding those every time if I go x/c x/c x/shove. No way he calls it off. Some thinking players fold bottom boats to that kind of action, although a smarter thinking player would fold 33 and call AJ assuming he doesn't just fold everything.

Also, I think it's fine to have hands where you can only x/c once. In a balanced strategy, you need to fold some bluff catchers on every street.

Check raise bluffing all in on the river at 1/3 is starting to get into FPS territory...

Not just starting in my opinion, its well across the line and definetely fancy play syndrome.

I gave up bluff raising the river in 2/5 or lower after getting called like 800x by the exact type of hands I thought they had (and thought they would fold).

Haha, this was my thought too before opening the thread. It is RARWLY correct at this level.

As an aside, I bet this flop quite often and maybe even the turn as well. AP, river is an easy fold.

The bolded is spot on. Checking this flop gives V a total free-roll no matter what he holds, is especially bad if we plan on x/c the turn, and increases V'ss bluffing frequency a ton. Don't do this. If we bet and he calls, then likely c/f the turn. With this board, we aren't going to win a big pot anyway, but we could lose one playing it passively.

Ok ok. I was wrong. Sorry. No need to get all snarky about it tho 😜😂(kidding)

While I understand that checking the flop will *sometimes* get us into uncomfortable spots on later streets (although note that betting will sometimes do the same), I don't think it is reason enough to bet due to we're mostly just WA/WB here. Getting hands that are drawing extremely thin to fold while getting hands that are way ahead to call (keeping in mind these are pretty much the only hands that exist on this board) doesn't seem like much of a coup to me.

GcluelessNLnoobG

OP usually always has aggressive image in description, OP, do you think its likely that this image is actually derived from taking FPS lines very often?

Exactly. Asides from his flush draws, his gutshots have pretty little equity. His lower PPs are basically toast. Equity denial is important, but I don't think we need to be doing it so much to the point where we're betting QQ. If we're thinking about betting QQ for equity denial, we're definitely betting 88 more frequently by that logic. That logic would also carry over to other flops and soon we're cbetting 3/4 of the time. Any good villain would destroy us.

Haha you say that like having an aggressive image is a bad thing.

It's because of how passive 1/3 tables typically are. Some of it is derived some these so called "FPS" lines, but most of it is derived from an actual TAG strategy instead of a nit strategy which means iso raising preflop, 3 better more than JJ+ AK and barreling more than just the flop.

FWIW, I think having a more aggressive image than a typical 25 yo hoodie wearing white grinder is perfect. The way people play back at 1/3 is passively, not aggressively. They aren't gonna start 3 betting me preflop or turning made hands into bluffs. They're just gonna see more flops vs me and call me down lighter. But the preflop adjustment is usually way more than the postflop adjustment. If they're playing 50% more hands preflop vs me, they need to see 50% more showdowns vs me. But they aren't. They will call me down lighter, but it's gonna be more like 25% more showdowns. If they won't call a $150 river bet after binking third pair trying to chase a draw, they still won't even if they are suspicious of me. They're not gonna turn into stations. This is something I realized when my value hands were not getting paid enough. People get scared when the pot gets to a certain size. Again back to Ed Miller's triangle, at some street they're gonna have to ditch their trash hands. 5/10 players do that by bluffing or folding. 1/3 players do that by folding.

I think there is actually much more argument for betting 88 than QQ here, as sometimes 88 is targetting 6-outers (while QQ never is) plus it also has a lot better chance of folding better (ex. TT). Kinda like much more reason to cbet TT on a A83r board than KK.

GimoG