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Old 03-26-2019, 02:30 PM   #26
acepokerblog
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

He showed Kd Jd.

Thanks for the posts.
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Old 03-26-2019, 02:47 PM   #27
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

Quote:
Originally Posted by acepokerblog View Post
He showed Kd Jd.

Thanks for the posts.
Dude managed to steal a big pot from us, and OOP no less. With that in mind, I'd question exactly how "fine" preflop actually is if that's going to happen a lot.

Gjustsayin',andI'llbeoutvotedbyalargemarginG
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Old 03-26-2019, 02:58 PM   #28
galethegreat
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

Is this full 9-10 table?

It is not too loose, opening KJs is fine here, I would open KJo in HJ and not before, but suited is ok, UTG you can find a fold if it is 10 table and keep KQ but it would not be the worst thing in the world. I like the open size too $15-$20 is great for 1/3

On paired boards, I would imply a merged C-bet strategy for pretty much 100% of my range as the PFR.

I would be betting anywhere from 33%-50% of the pot on the flop. I would opt out for smaller value online and if the pot was a bit larger, you guy have $31 in the pot.

I would bet $10-20 range on the flop, I would probably do $20 in this scenario since it does not really hit BB range.

If called,

I am looking to check back most turns, if we are improved to a J or K (and possibly an A as a bluff since it is in our range), I would then bet 75%-130% of the pot. Again this is merged cbet strat that i am talking about. For live games, we can just do 75-80% unless it is multiway.
So on a K,J and A I would bet 75-80% pot.

If called I would then start to consider what the villain has and if it is likely that he has an 8 on the river and careful of check-raises and river leads
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Old 03-26-2019, 03:11 PM   #29
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

Quote:
Originally Posted by acepokerblog View Post
He showed Kd Jd.

Thanks for the posts.
That's a really mean flop float with KJdd for a pot sized bet. He must have had plans to steal on several run outs.
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:19 PM   #30
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
That's a really mean flop float with KJdd for a pot sized bet. He must have had plans to steal on several run outs.
This is where I should've slowed down and thought more about the situation.

I should've been more passive. BB has seen me c-bet at a 100% rate with pot-sized bets or bigger in many heads up situations as the preflop raiser since the table had so many fit/fold players.

So, he definitely has me at a pretty wide range even though I bet the pot on the flop.

If I go to his level of thinking, then check on flop seems to be the correct play since he is probably not going to respect any bet.
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:29 PM   #31
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

Well at least ck turn, and again, consider calling a non club (or diamond I suppose) and force him to have an 8. Or just ck and give up if you’re not willing to bluff catch K high in spots where it’s probably good to do so.
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:38 PM   #32
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Dude managed to steal a big pot from us, and OOP no less. With that in mind, I'd question exactly how "fine" preflop actually is if that's going to happen a lot.
Well we had K-hi with no draw and villain turned equity but phenomenal results oriented thinking once again.

Barely clicking it back with a xr when we double barrel a turn Ace is going to be a losing play versus our range.
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Old 03-27-2019, 01:05 PM   #33
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Well we had K-hi with no draw and villain turned equity but phenomenal results oriented thinking once again.

Barely clicking it back with a xr when we double barrel a turn Ace is going to be a losing play versus our range.
I'm not trying to be completely results oriented.

All I'm saying is that in this spot our opponent managed to win the pot with no hand and OOP. Start giving our opponent actual better hands, or start being OOP (both of which will often be the case opening this early with this mediocre of a hand), and it's not as easy / "fine" as everyone is making it out to be.

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Old 03-27-2019, 01:20 PM   #34
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
That's a really mean flop float with KJdd for a pot sized bet. He must have had plans to steal on several run outs.
I'm guessing he planned to steal on any turn card if the H bet again. What could the H have that can withstand a turn check-raise? Even if H had QQ and the turn was a 9, a decent H would be hating life if he got check-raised and could possibly find a fold.
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Old 03-27-2019, 02:44 PM   #35
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I'm not trying to be completely results oriented.

All I'm saying is that in this spot our opponent managed to win the pot with no hand and OOP. Start giving our opponent actual better hands, or start being OOP (both of which will often be the case opening this early with this mediocre of a hand), and it's not as easy / "fine" as everyone is making it out to be.

GimoG
Let's imagine what your ranges look like here... Open, called by BB 883s ck, you bet what? (get called), Ax turn, what bet bets do you have? If you check turn now, and V pots river, do you even have a calling range?

It's not about KJs, it's about post flop play. I mean, aren't you getting wrecked here by anyone who quickly identifies your strategy?
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:34 PM   #36
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Let's imagine what your ranges look like here... Open, called by BB 883s ck, you bet what? (get called), Ax turn, what bet bets do you have? If you check turn now, and V pots river, do you even have a calling range?

It's not about KJs, it's about post flop play. I mean, aren't you getting wrecked here by anyone who quickly identifies your strategy?
And what I'm saying is that here we got very lucky that we ended up in the best possible postflop spot (HU in position with a hand that was no worse than our opponent's) and yet we still lost the pot. On top of that, I don't think anyone liked OP's flop cbet size. And on top of that, there looks to be disagreement whether he should give up versus double barrel the turn (and perhaps even whether he should cbet the flop). And all of this postflop play was in the best possible case (HU in position and not with the worst hand).

We opened preflop with 6 people still to react (4 of which have position on us). If we're not killing postflop in the "easy" situation (HU in position and not the worst hand), then I doubt we're doing much better in the difficult one (OOP with the worst hand and perhaps multiway).

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:42 PM   #37
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
And what I'm saying is that here we got very lucky that we ended up in the best possible postflop spot (HU in position with a hand that was no worse than our opponent's) and yet we still lost the pot. On top of that, I don't think anyone liked OP's flop cbet size. And on top of that, there looks to be disagreement whether he should give up versus double barrel the turn (and perhaps even whether he should cbet the flop). And all of this postflop play was in the best possible case (HU in position and not with the worst hand).

We opened preflop with 6 people still to react (4 of which have position on us). If we're not killing postflop in the "easy" situation (HU in position and not the worst hand), then I doubt we're doing much better in the difficult one (OOP with the worst hand and perhaps multiway).

GcluelessNLnoobG
What I'm asking is basically what hands do you have here otf? Are you only winning this pot with AA? If so, it isn't about preflop.
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:17 PM   #38
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
What I'm asking is basically what hands do you have here otf? Are you only winning this pot with AA? If so, it isn't about preflop.
If you're literally asking what hands I have here, then since we're not in LP I have a pretty tight range here (a default of 77+/AQo+/ATs, all of which I mostly limp which makes the hand play completely differently).

And it's totally about preflop. It's about not being OOP with inferior hands and (from the looks of it) possibly inferior skill to our opponents (and that's not a bash on OP).

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-27-2019, 06:26 PM   #39
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
If you're literally asking what hands I have here, then since we're not in LP I have a pretty tight range here (a default of 77+/AQo+/ATs, all of which I mostly limp which makes the hand play completely differently).
And which of these hands are you double barreling? Well you're not double barreling any because you're a nit, but a normal player that opened that range and c-bet 100% would be betting Ax+ here plus bluffs/semi-bluffs meaning villain is xr into a range that is comprised of value hands that are 100% Ax or better, strong semi-bluffs and low equity bluffs.

So if a non-nit (ie: not you) has a PFR range of 77+/AQo+/ATs+/KTs+/QTs+/JTs (8.5% range / 112 combos) and a double barrel on Ace turn range of AA/88/ATs+/KTs+/QTs+/JTs/AQo+ (5.1% range / 58 combos) guess how many value hands, semi bluffs and stone bluffs he will have?

I'll do the math for you...

Value - AA/88/ATs+/AQo+ (34/58 combos or 59%)

Semi-Bluff - KQs/QJs+/JTs+ flush draw combos (12/58 combos or ~21%)

Pure-Bluff - KQs/QJs+/JTs+ (12/58 combos or ~21%)

So hero is continuing with 80% of his double barrel range and villain is getting slaughtered. It just so happened that hero had the bottom of his double barrel range and villain turned a bunch of equity. It was dumb luck on villain's part but you latch on to the minutiae because you're a results oriented thinker.
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Old 03-27-2019, 06:32 PM   #40
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

ty for extrapolating all this. Scary to imagine someone might read through this thread and remove KJs as an open bc V won a hand this way and showed.
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Old 03-27-2019, 07:49 PM   #41
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
And which of these hands are you double barreling? Well you're not double barreling any because you're a nit, but a normal player that opened that range and c-bet 100% would be betting Ax+ here plus bluffs/semi-bluffs meaning villain is xr into a range that is comprised of value hands that are 100% Ax or better, strong semi-bluffs and low equity bluffs.

So if a non-nit (ie: not you) has a PFR range of 77+/AQo+/ATs+/KTs+/QTs+/JTs (8.5% range / 112 combos) and a double barrel on Ace turn range of AA/88/ATs+/KTs+/QTs+/JTs/AQo+ (5.1% range / 58 combos) guess how many value hands, semi bluffs and stone bluffs he will have?

I'll do the math for you...

Value - AA/88/ATs+/AQo+ (34/58 combos or 59%)

Semi-Bluff - KQs/QJs+/JTs+ flush draw combos (12/58 combos or ~21%)

Pure-Bluff - KQs/QJs+/JTs+ (12/58 combos or ~21%)

So hero is continuing with 80% of his double barrel range and villain is getting slaughtered. It just so happened that hero had the bottom of his double barrel range and villain turned a bunch of equity. It was dumb luck on villain's part but you latch on to the minutiae because you're a results oriented thinker.
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Old 03-27-2019, 09:22 PM   #42
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
And which of these hands are you double barreling? Well you're not double barreling any because you're a nit, but a normal player that opened that range and c-bet 100% would be betting Ax+ here plus bluffs/semi-bluffs meaning villain is xr into a range that is comprised of value hands that are 100% Ax or better, strong semi-bluffs and low equity bluffs.

So if a non-nit (ie: not you) has a PFR range of 77+/AQo+/ATs+/KTs+/QTs+/JTs (8.5% range / 112 combos) and a double barrel on Ace turn range of AA/88/ATs+/KTs+/QTs+/JTs/AQo+ (5.1% range / 58 combos) guess how many value hands, semi bluffs and stone bluffs he will have?

I'll do the math for you...

Value - AA/88/ATs+/AQo+ (34/58 combos or 59%)

Semi-Bluff - KQs/QJs+/JTs+ flush draw combos (12/58 combos or ~21%)

Pure-Bluff - KQs/QJs+/JTs+ (12/58 combos or ~21%)

So hero is continuing with 80% of his double barrel range and villain is getting slaughtered. It just so happened that hero had the bottom of his double barrel range and villain turned a bunch of equity. It was dumb luck on villain's part but you latch on to the minutiae because you're a results oriented thinker.

This is great stuff Johnny thanks!

Itís true however that with 6 players yet to act preflop that itís a 27pct probability one of them will show up with a 5pct top range hand and a 47pct chance one will show up with a 10pct top range hand. Itís easy enough to do the math on this.

So the math dictates that the number of Villians to act behind us really matters in our opening range I think. That said, even adjusted for the value of position, thereís nothing horrible about the open here. But weíre going to be towards the bottom of a 10pct range roughly half the time with 6 left to act with KJs.

For me, Iím not good enough to make these numbers work. The numbers get a lot better with 4 Vís behind.

I think this was a great discussion and I just wanted to add these probability figures on ranges behind H for more perspective and frame of reference for this discussion.
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Old 03-27-2019, 10:43 PM   #43
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
And which of these hands are you double barreling? Well you're not double barreling any because you're a nit, but a normal player that opened that range and c-bet 100% would be betting Ax+ here plus bluffs/semi-bluffs meaning villain is xr into a range that is comprised of value hands that are 100% Ax or better, strong semi-bluffs and low equity bluffs.

So if a non-nit (ie: not you) has a PFR range of 77+/AQo+/ATs+/KTs+/QTs+/JTs (8.5% range / 112 combos) and a double barrel on Ace turn range of AA/88/ATs+/KTs+/QTs+/JTs/AQo+ (5.1% range / 58 combos) guess how many value hands, semi bluffs and stone bluffs he will have?

I'll do the math for you...

Value - AA/88/ATs+/AQo+ (34/58 combos or 59%)

Semi-Bluff - KQs/QJs+/JTs+ flush draw combos (12/58 combos or ~21%)

Pure-Bluff - KQs/QJs+/JTs+ (12/58 combos or ~21%)

So hero is continuing with 80% of his double barrel range and villain is getting slaughtered. It just so happened that hero had the bottom of his double barrel range and villain turned a bunch of equity. It was dumb luck on villain's part but you latch on to the minutiae because you're a results oriented thinker.
Nice analysis, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanishmoon View Post
This is great stuff Johnny thanks!

Itís true however that with 6 players yet to act preflop that itís a 27pct probability one of them will show up with a 5pct top range hand and a 47pct chance one will show up with a 10pct top range hand. Itís easy enough to do the math on this.

So the math dictates that the number of Villians to act behind us really matters in our opening range I think. That said, even adjusted for the value of position, thereís nothing horrible about the open here. But weíre going to be towards the bottom of a 10pct range roughly half the time with 6 left to act with KJs.

For me, Iím not good enough to make these numbers work. The numbers get a lot better with 4 Vís behind.

I think this was a great discussion and I just wanted to add these probability figures on ranges behind H for more perspective and frame of reference for this discussion.
I've been realizing how complex this game is so I'm going to play tighter preflop. I feel like I don't yet have the skill to brawl profitably with these tricky players.
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Old 03-28-2019, 11:01 AM   #44
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Re: 1/3: Heads Up with KJs Vs Good Player in BB

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Originally Posted by acepokerblog View Post
I've been realizing how complex this game is so I'm going to play tighter preflop. I feel like I don't yet have the skill to brawl profitably with these tricky players.
This is a good take away, imo. And if you eventually advance to where you think you have a massive skill advantage over the table then you can always change your thinking then.

Regarding everyone else's "you're being results oriented": we raised from EP and somehow managed to get this HU in position; that's results oriented. I don't know what type of games everyone else plays in, but that is going to happen almost never in my game. So all we do is mostly end up OOP, with an inferior hand, and possibly (according to OP) outskilled. Good luck long term with that.

Gbuteveryonecandowhattheywant,Idon'tcareG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 03-28-2019 at 11:07 AM.
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