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Old 02-05-2014, 10:07 PM   #1
fizzypants
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1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

4 limpers, KJo on BTN, Hero raises to $25, 5 callers

Flop ($125): 4 5 6 ddd
Hero gives up


5 limpers, QJdd on BTN, Hero raises to $25, 4 callers

Flop ($100): 7 8 4 r
Hero gives up


Is it better to just limp behind these strong hands on BTN???
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Old 02-05-2014, 11:35 PM   #2
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

An entire book could be written about handling these situations, there is no simple correct answer. The summary version is that if the table is tight and raising will generally get you heads up, then raise most of the time. If the table is loose and raising won't isolate very well, then only occasionally raise these hands. If the table is nitty post flop and c-bets will usually take it down even multiway, then raise most of the time. If the table is stationary post flop then limp in. If the table is short then fold these hands some of the time. In between you will have to work out the best ratio of raise/limp/fold based on the situation.
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Old 02-05-2014, 11:38 PM   #3
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Raise more pre to find the sweet spot where people will actually fold. I wouldn't refer to KJo as a strong hand. Though QJdd does well in raised pots.
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Old 02-05-2014, 11:42 PM   #4
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

In the situation you are describing limping the button is far better. When you have players that don't have fold buttons don't bother trying to isolate just see a flop multi way with a hand that can make the nuts. That's an answer in a tiny nutshell.

However there will be plenty of other situations were raising these hands OTB is correct. That will be best Vs fit or fold type Vs who will fold the 65% of the time they don't flop a pair. You just need to be evaluating the table and going from there.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:19 AM   #5
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Join date: Sept 2010

No villian descriptions or general table condition, stacks, whatever, lol.

Playing 2/5

Asking about super common spots.

Recipe for disaster.
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:29 AM   #6
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Honestly, if you're getting this many callers, I'd limp these and play them in position.

At $1/$3 if $25 isn't thinning the field, you are simply at a GREAT table. Enjoy it.
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:14 AM   #7
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

I would always be raising these hands from the button, your problem is your not raising enough to force folds. If their calling $25 go to $30, if they call $30 make it $35. it's up to you to find the amount that accomplishes what ever it is your trying to do at any given time in a hand.

btw 5 guys limp/calling more than 8x opens oop is fabulous no matter how you slice it.
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:57 PM   #8
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Imo, there's only 2 reasons to raise preflop. One, to narrow the field to 3way at absolute worse, preferably in position. Two, to setup an SPR where we are cool stacking off postflop with TP hands. If we are unlikely to accomplish either of these two things, we should probably not raise. Your table conditions and stack sizes will dictate your play.

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Old 02-06-2014, 03:29 PM   #9
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzypants View Post
4 limpers, KJo on BTN, Hero raises to $25, 5 callers

Flop ($125): 4 5 6 ddd
Hero gives up


5 limpers, QJdd on BTN, Hero raises to $25, 4 callers

Flop ($100): 7 8 4 r
Hero gives up


Is it better to just limp behind these strong hands on BTN???
lol at "hero gives up"

maybe start c-betting these hands and trying to take control post-flop not just pre and then playing fit or fold once the cards land? i admit the first flop is soaking but the second one is kinda dry and you can happily bet your 2 overs so long as you're cool with being aggressive and you're not playing with your whole bankroll on the table in front of you.

raising broadways on the button in unopened pots full of weak players is never wrong. you might be more comfortable limping behind but if you want to play aggressive poker you should probably keep on firing the raises in. here's why:

5 limpers, QJdd on BTN, Hero raises to $25, 4 callers

Flop ($100): J27dd
Hero shovels money in the pot and gets called by droolers
happy days
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:00 PM   #10
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jambre View Post
Raise more pre to find the sweet spot where people will actually fold. I wouldn't refer to KJo as a strong hand. Though QJdd does well in raised pots.

this

keep raising tho in position, eventually itll be profitable

also at a 1/3 game with 5 limpers i would raise to 27
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Old 02-06-2014, 07:04 PM   #11
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Im totally cool with overlimping both if these hands with this many limpers
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Old 02-06-2014, 08:06 PM   #12
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Also, lol at counting the pot.
raise to $25, 4 callers. Plus maybe 1-2 blinds. Pot should be $125-$130. Not $100.

But yes, give up on the flop.
And if you are getting this sort of action pre flop, then raise with top 5% of hands, bet every flop, shove (almost) every turn and profit.
These tables are like gold mines.
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Old 02-06-2014, 08:35 PM   #13
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

27 compared to 25 makes no difference. And raising these types of hands Vs these types of player seems pointless. Why not just raise our premiums if no one folds.
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Old 02-06-2014, 08:48 PM   #14
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Raise as much as you can get away with on the button with these hands against limps, huge amounts of value from cbetting or making TP

These flop situations are pretty much nut bad and so don't represent a typical situation
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Old 02-06-2014, 11:40 PM   #15
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

What are effective stacks? Against average stacks of 70bb or less I would just limp behind though I'd muck KJo a lot. Only raise pre if you can get one to two callers only and youd have to iso to $30 to $35. At some tables, one call gets all the limpers to call so I would just limp behind
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Old 02-07-2014, 02:40 AM   #16
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Keep doing exactly what you did as long as you get a string of callers preflop. If they insist on limp/calling whatever crap they limp, then punish them. You will hit the flop the % that you are supposed to and overwin when you do.

On super dry boards you might work on figuring how to maybe cbet and see who is interested postflop, or delay cbet and still use your position to your advantage.

But 5 handed you normally play fit fold post.
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Old 02-07-2014, 02:59 AM   #17
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

As long as they keep calling with worse pre or you can identify who limp/calls with a strong range and proceed cautiously postflop against them then keep raising those hands for value pre, although limping behind isn't that bad.

Yes it sucks to play fit or fold in multiway pots but the times you do hit and win will be in ~$100 pots. Or just identify who will fold their weak TP hands to a c-bet.
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:44 AM   #18
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimshady1999 View Post
What are effective stacks? Against average stacks of 70bb or less I would just limp behind though I'd muck KJo a lot. Only raise pre if you can get one to two callers only and youd have to iso to $30 to $35. At some tables, one call gets all the limpers to call so I would just limp behind
This, more or less... If you're unsure how to play post flop and when to "hero gives up" or to continue with the hand, overlimp, especially if you're getting 4-5 callers consistently.
Or, continue as planned, cbet/delay cbet on dry boards whether you hit or don't. This table seems like my Friday night 2/3 game. Variance... Ready, bro?
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:38 PM   #19
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AintNoLimit View Post
Keep doing exactly what you did as long as you get a string of callers preflop. If they insist on limp/calling whatever crap they limp, then punish them. You will hit the flop the % that you are supposed to and overwin when you do.
I'm kinda surprised at this, tbh. You'd rather go to a raised flop very multiway with fairly mediocre hands rather than just go to a multiway limped pot?

In a multiway raised pot, we have no wiggle room postflop due to SPR, and often one bet will commit our stacks. Not sure how great I feel about stacking off with TP when I'm holding KJ/QJ in a multiway pot. Heck, I don't even feel great stacking off with TPTK in a very multiway pot.

I'd much rather see a limped pot here, keeping the SPR skyhigh with our mediocre drawing hands, and simply shovel in money postflop when we hit.

If you did a preflop equity calc on all of the hands, we probably have a very slight equity advantage. Heck, with KJ, we probably don't even have an advantage. But that is a very slight equity advantage, and that's also assuming we're able to get to the river and realize our equity. I'd much rather see a flop, and punish everyone when I'm an overwhelming lock.

Gpunishthelimpersaftertheflop,notbeforetheflop,imo G

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 02-07-2014 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:53 PM   #20
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hainesy_2KT View Post
lol at "hero gives up"

maybe start c-betting these hands and trying to take control post-flop not just pre and then playing fit or fold once the cards land? i admit the first flop is soaking but the second one is kinda dry and you can happily bet your 2 overs so long as you're cool with being aggressive and you're not playing with your whole bankroll on the table in front of you.

raising broadways on the button in unopened pots full of weak players is never wrong. you might be more comfortable limping behind but if you want to play aggressive poker you should probably keep on firing the raises in. here's why:

5 limpers, QJdd on BTN, Hero raises to $25, 4 callers

Flop ($100): J27dd
Hero shovels money in the pot and gets called by droolers
happy days
Lol @ "lol @ hero gives up"

Yeah... whatever you do... Don't start firing cbets into 5 players with over cards on a 874r board.

With 5 limpers that won't fold, I would usually just limp behind with these types of hands. As others have said, QJs is better than KJo in this spot.
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Old 02-07-2014, 01:05 PM   #21
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
If you did a preflop equity calc on all of the hands, we probably have a very slight equity advantage. Heck, with KJ, we probably don't even have an advantage. But that is a very slight equity advantage, and that's also assuming we're able to get to the river and realize our equity.
Of course we do. And like you said, it is not about equity going to the river, just how often we will flop well enough to continue.

Let's say that with KJ, we will flop top pair or better and be ahead on the flop 25% of the time. That's an underestimate, but bear with me. When we raise preflop and get 4 callers, as long as that's happening 20% of the time, we are fine. Also, in a raised pot, we are not the only one who doesn't get to realize equity: if someone flopped a gutshot, we can actually bet them off it in a raised pot. In a limped pot, that guy is seeing a turn. (Or, we get to charge a huge amount for a gutshot to draw. Either way I am happy.)

If I don't feel that KJo is a raise in position, I'm throwing it away, standing up, and asking for a table change and refusing to be dealt cards until I get one. This is just not a good enough drawing hand to limp in and take a cheap flop.
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:05 PM   #22
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Meh. I pretty much get hard seeing a very multiway flop for absolute peanuts in the best seat at a table full of morons getting 100x+ implied odds. I'm fistpump overlimping a bunch of hands here and feeling pretty awesome about it.

ETA: Regarding V's blurb above. First, I really don't really KJo is all that much of an equity favourite in a typical multiway pot (if it is, it's by mere percentage points). Second, this plan of attack (i.e. raising every time we are a very small equity favourite) seems more out of the Limit playbook, where we have to capitalize on our equity advantage every step of the way because we can't make up for it on later streets. NL is all about implied odds, so we can pass on small equity advantages on early streets and simply play postflop when we are hugenormous favourites. It also prevents us from getting into sticky spots with very marginal hands in bloated multiway pots. Seeing a 5 flop for $20 each with KJo, flopping KT4dd in a $100 pot with $280 behind is not a situation we want to voluntarily put ourselves in, imo.

Gwe'llagreetodisagreeIguess;andwelcomebackVernon,h opeyouaregettingintosomegamesoutthereG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 02-07-2014 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:28 PM   #23
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

with KJo its a question of SPR.....don't just raise the limpers because they are limbers...these hand play well with SPR below 1 or above 5 (in multiway pots) ...avoid the middle ground 2 to 4 spr like crazy...I also don't like making ridiculous large raises ...it just forces the calling ranges tight to a point the KJ does not do well against them (I want k5s and KT to call me).

.From ED Millers web article on starting hands...

Quote:
Against multiple limpers, I tend to raise my strong hands that I want to play a big pot with and limp with everything else. This rule in particular has me limping sometimes with hands like K Q after a few limpers. Sure, it’s a strong hand that has a good shot with position. But if you build too big a pot preflop, you can end up with an awkward SPR on the flop if you catch top pair. Just last week I was playing $2-$5 and absent-mindedly raised four limpers with KQo. Everyone called making it $150 in the pot preflop. The flop came KT9, and because the preflop pot was so big (and because I had a straight draw to go with my top pair and because he played his hand well) I was essentially forced to commit my remaining $400 against someone who flopped top two. Obviously, that’s just one outcome out of the millions possible, and many outcomes will have you winning more because you raised preflop. But overall you have more flexibility to exploit your position if you don’t juice the pot to an awkward SPR with big offsuit cards.
http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...he-cutoff.html

QJs is a little closer and I often raise it. In multi way pots my c betting plan is to always be able to double barrel with a lot of cards and QJs hits equity more often and in many flops give you over half the deck to continue cbetting the turn with...
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:50 PM   #24
Hainesy_2KT
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Re: 1/3: Hands like KJo/QJs on BTN with limpers, raise or call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaNEWPr0fess0r View Post
Lol @ "lol @ hero gives up"

Yeah... whatever you do... Don't start firing cbets into 5 players with over cards on a 874r board.

With 5 limpers that won't fold, I would usually just limp behind with these types of hands. As others have said, QJs is better than KJo in this spot.
i wasn't loling at his choice of play, i was loling because the phrase "hero gives up" conjured up a mental image that amused me.

op can do whatever he likes and listen to wheover he wants to listen to, limping multiway with Khi broadways on the button is not a play i've ever seen advocated by any winning player in my life, in fact it is a completely standard raise in this spot every time. unless we're trying to balance our button limping range. lol

seriously though, if your goal in poker is to be a better loose passive fish than the other loose passive fishes at your table, that's great. for a new guy, becoming aggressive is a step towards becoming a stronger player. getting in bad habits early on is bad news imo.
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