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Old 12-07-2017, 12:57 AM   #1
fishstox94
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1/3 hand advice

Here is a hand from a recent 1/3 session.

Villain: This villain would go on to win a few pots from me today. He had an odd game. He was definitely loose passive. He was in his late 30s, looked like he hadn't played much poker in a casino and every few hands he had to leave the table to vape.. I had watched him make a few loose pf calls today. Ex. big sized raise with callers and he called with AJo. I had also watched him fold some big pairs (he would show his cards as if he made a hero fold.) when he almost definitely should have called. Also had watched him get raised pf and jam with Kings early in the session.

Hero ($390~)utg +2 looks down at AdKd. Opens to $13.

MP and cutoff call and Villain ($200) in the button raises to $26???

Hero thinks for a little then 4bets to $75.

MP and cut off fold, Villain tanks for over a minute, looks like he is honestly going to fold...Then makes the call.

Flop: ($175) 10d6c3s

Hero: The flop is an absolute blank.. We have two overs and backdoor diamonds. Im putting hero on A10o+ QQ-88. I don't think he could possibly have KK or AA because he would have got it in pf. He didn't look extremely comfortable after the flop. And I was pretty positive that he had me on AA.

Hero???
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:18 AM   #2
setintostraight
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

I don't like your sizing at all. Is $13 open standard at your table?

At my 1/3 game, I would try to go something like

$18-20 open, 2 calls
V 3! to $40,
I 4! to $150, effectively putting V allin preflop. Or maybe just shove my whole stack to protect against MP and CO calling.

On the flop, V has only $125 behind, so if we shove and play for stacks, it's only $125 to win a pot of $300.

AdKd has 49.5% equity against QQ-88,ATs+,ATo+ range here, so you're in good shape. But keep in mind I'm basing this on the reads you gave.

Also flatting 4! at certain LLSNL games usually means the nuts.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:15 AM   #3
fishstox94
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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Originally Posted by setintostraight View Post
I don't like your sizing at all. Is $13 open standard at your table?

At my 1/3 game, I would try to go something like

$18-20 open, 2 calls
V 3! to $40,
I 4! to $150, effectively putting V allin preflop. Or maybe just shove my whole stack to protect against MP and CO calling.

On the flop, V has only $125 behind, so if we shove and play for stacks, it's only $125 to win a pot of $300.

AdKd has 49.5% equity against QQ-88,ATs+,ATo+ range here, so you're in good shape. But keep in mind I'm basing this on the reads you gave.

Also flatting 4! at certain LLSNL games usually means the nuts.
I disagree with flatting 4 bet means the nuts.. 4bets in low stakes really don't happen that often and usually when someone has AA KK facing a 4 bet they get it in.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:18 AM   #4
fishstox94
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

My range on him might not be perfect but I had watched him call light multiple times during the session pre flop. My raise was pretty standard at that table.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:54 AM   #5
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

Pro tip. When you make three of the first 4 posts in your thread, it isn't going well. I'd wait for more responses before making your first response back. You are in theory asking for help. You shouldn't be arguing with the one person decided to give it. It discourages others from bothering to even respond if you act as if you know all the answers already.

Loose passives generally don't have a wide 3 bet range. The only 3bet you saw him make is with KK. A min 3bet is almost always AA. He isn't looking for anyone to fold (especially since he jammed with KK before). Against that range, folding AK pf is easy.

As played, the effective stack is $125 and the pot is $175. If you think he can fold KK, then jam. If not, x/f. I'll note that most LLSNL players will tank with even JJ, say something like "I guess I've got to pay you off," then call.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:23 AM   #6
donbarzini
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

He only has 200, so once you make it 75 the hand is over. You are getting it in preflop or on the flop. If you don't want to do this, then don't make it 75.

The limpers are annoying because it sucks to call and then they call too. Maybe that isn't so terrible.

I guess I'd sometimes call, and sometimes make it 50 and fold to a jam. Tricky spot.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:49 AM   #7
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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He only has 200, so once you make it 75 the hand is over. You are getting it in preflop or on the flop. If you don't want to do this, then don't make it 75.

The limpers are annoying because it sucks to call and then they call too. Maybe that isn't so terrible.

I guess I'd sometimes call, and sometimes make it 50 and fold to a jam. Tricky spot.
Clarifying.... I would call with AKs, and raise-small/fold with AKo. Since you have AKs, I think it is a call since it does fine multiway.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:06 PM   #8
fishstox94
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Pro tip. When you make three of the first 4 posts in your thread, it isn't going well. I'd wait for more responses before making your first response back. You are in theory asking for help. You shouldn't be arguing with the one person decided to give it. It discourages others from bothering to even respond if you act as if you know all the answers already.

Loose passives generally don't have a wide 3 bet range. The only 3bet you saw him make is with KK. A min 3bet is almost always AA. He isn't looking for anyone to fold (especially since he jammed with KK before). Against that range, folding AK pf is easy.

As played, the effective stack is $125 and the pot is $175. If you think he can fold KK, then jam. If not, x/f. I'll note that most LLSNL players will tank with even JJ, say something like "I guess I've got to pay you off," then call.
Sorry wasn't trying to argue. I just missed responding to part of his post, so I posted again. And I miss spoke, that wasn't his only 3bet pf. I was just noting that I had seen him push the action with a big PP.

The min raise was interesting. I feel like with my experience, when people hold AA KK in lower stakes games they raise pretty large to "protect" their hand.. Although initially I thought the same thing, that its probably AA KK. But then I felt that it was more likely AQs, JJ, etc. because of the min raise.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:31 PM   #9
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

Against the average 1/3 player whose 3 bet range is something like QQ+/AK, 4 betting is not my desired play preflop with AK.

Putting him on 88-TT does not seem like the player you are describing. And he can easily have KK preflop and think, oh no, he may have aces, but I have KK so I cawl.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:49 PM   #10
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

Looks like we were going to go at least 4ways given our raise sizing, which I think woulda been a really poor preflop result. I either raise more to help prevent this (with this loose guy on the Button and a $200 stack I'd easily make it $20+ here) or with these stacks (especially if this big against everyone else) and this hand (suited variety plays perfectly fine in high SPR multiway pots) limp to evaluate (possibly reraise).

Anything to make of the minraise? The fact that this guy can fold hands that perhaps he shouldn't and with these smallish stack sizes and this dead money, I would shove preflop, putting maximum pressure on hands that have decent equity against us (like middling pairs). A normalish 3bet ain't bad either although I'm not sure it gives us as much FE preflop or on the flop (where he'll only have about a 2/3 PSB left and might feel committed).

Trivial shove on the flop. He can still make some hero folds and even in the times he doesn't we still suck out a decent amount of the time.

ETA: Regarding facing the 3bet preflop, AK is admittedly a real tricky hand and really dependent against who were up against. Against some nits who only have a 3betting range of KK+ then it's a pretty trivial fold preflop. But this guy seems a little weird plus he just minraised with 3 already in the pot who will undoubtedly all call (typically KK+ doesn't do that). You're there and have a better handle on this weirdo, but with the dead money in the pot I'm kinda ok with playing for stacks against him / flexing my FE against lol "99 is good hand, so I 3bet".

GcluelessNLnoobG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 12-07-2017 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:24 PM   #11
jtm1208
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

UTG open raise to $13 is fine. Depending on how the game is going you might want to size up a bit bigger, in the $15 - $20 range. But certainly not an error on your part.

after two flats and a 3-bet min-raise to $26, I think a 4-bet is certainly the right play. Your sizing however is off. I'd go to a minimum of $91 but more likely to $100.
3 x amount of 3-bet + (.5 x amount of limpers x amount of original bet). You can add a few extra dollars to the raise since you are OOP.

Shoving any flop should be your plan. Literally any flop you should be shoving
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:38 PM   #12
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtm1208 View Post
UTG open raise to $13 is fine. Depending on how the game is going you might want to size up a bit bigger, in the $15 - $20 range. But certainly not an error on your part.

after two flats and a 3-bet min-raise to $26, I think a 4-bet is certainly the right play. Your sizing however is off. I'd go to a minimum of $91 but more likely to $100.
3 x amount of 3-bet + (.5 x amount of limpers x amount of original bet). You can add a few extra dollars to the raise since you are OOP.

Shoving any flop should be your plan. Literally any flop you should be shoving
If we went 5ways to the flop would you consider it a good result or bad one? (this is a pretty polarizing question, admittedly)

Is there a mathematical reason behind 3x + .5 + etc.?

What difference does being OOP in an SPR pot < 1 matter? (if anything, it is actually a benefit as we get first chance at bluffing)

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:58 PM   #13
setintostraight
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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Originally Posted by jtm1208 View Post
UTG open raise to $13 is fine. Depending on how the game is going you might want to size up a bit bigger, in the $15 - $20 range. But certainly not an error on your part.

after two flats and a 3-bet min-raise to $26, I think a 4-bet is certainly the right play. Your sizing however is off. I'd go to a minimum of $91 but more likely to $100.
3 x amount of 3-bet + (.5 x amount of limpers x amount of original bet). You can add a few extra dollars to the raise since you are OOP.

Shoving any flop should be your plan. Literally any flop you should be shoving
A $5-7 difference in the initial open makes setting up a pre-flop shove trivial and gets more dead money in the pot. Our 4-bet is putting the V to a decision pre rather than letting him improve on the flop. (This is assuming OP's read is correct and V has low pps and ATo in his 3! range)

The only question is whether we are ok playing for stacks against this particular V with our specific holding. That decision depends almost entirely on V's history and Hero's reads and it needed to have been made before the UTG open. There are particular OMC V's in LSL where AKs is an instamuck to a 3!

But once we get to the flop, we should be shoving.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:08 PM   #14
jtm1208
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
If we went 5ways to the flop would you consider it a good result or bad one? (this is a pretty polarizing question, admittedly)

Is there a mathematical reason behind 3x + .5 + etc.?

What difference does being OOP in an SPR pot < 1 matter? (if anything, it is actually a benefit as we get first chance at bluffing)

GcluelessNLnoobG
First of all, I said depending on the game flow you may way to increase the size of the UTG open. But $13 is a fine open in a standard 1/3 NL game. Going 5 handed would not be ideal, but you'll have more than $20% equity in the hand almost everytime, so one can live with that.

In a 1/3 NL game, the opener is more likely to get lightly raised if they open for $13 then if they open for $20...almost like this hand exactly. Giving hero an increased chance at 4-betting preflop is ideal.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:12 PM   #15
SBussie
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

Please don’t ever limp AKs. Please don’t EVER open limp AKs. Your open sizing is fine, with it being suited you don’t mind having it go 4 ways as it plays way better than its offsuit combos. As played I’m just jamming the flop. Are we ever x/f for his last $125?
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:28 PM   #16
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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Originally Posted by jtm1208 View Post
In a 1/3 NL game, the opener is more likely to get lightly raised if they open for $13 then if they open for $20...almost like this hand exactly. Giving hero an increased chance at 4-betting preflop is ideal.
That's fair enough; if your game has a lotta 3betting going on, especially to smaller sized bets, then yeah, much better chance of a smaller open + calls getting 3bet.

Depends a lot on Hero's image (ex. not a lotta people are going to 3bet a nit opening in EP regardless of how small is open is) and the types of games you play in (ex. some games don't feature a lot of 3betting and even have opponents flatting with hands as strong as QQ/AK and sometimes even bigger, so a very multiway result is much more expected than a 3bet pot).

Ggamedependent,imoG
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:32 PM   #17
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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Originally Posted by SBussie View Post
Please don’t ever limp AKs. Please don’t EVER open limp AKs.
To prove a "never ever do this" statement is wrong, all you have to do is come up with one single counterexample.

Counterexample: There's a player at your table that when unopened to him will shove every time, but when raised in front of him will just call.

Gveryfew"neverevers"inpoker,imoG
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:08 PM   #18
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
To prove a "never ever do this" statement is wrong, all you have to do is come up with one single counterexample.

Counterexample: There's a player at your table that when unopened to him will shove every time, but when raised in front of him will just call.

Gveryfew"neverevers"inpoker,imoG
Speaking of never evers...
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:52 PM   #19
fishstox94
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

Thanks for the responses. Big take is that with AK suited I could have just called the min raise and seen a flop.

Here is how the hand played out:

Hero ends up jamming on the flop.

Villain tanks for an eternity, and eventually calls and says " your aces have me, but I can't fold." Villain shows KK and it holds up.

I really couldn't put him on KK, but it is what it is.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:55 PM   #20
jtm1208
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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Originally Posted by fishstox94 View Post
Thanks for the responses. Big take is that with AK suited I could have just called the min raise and seen a flop.

Here is how the hand played out:

Hero ends up jamming on the flop.

Villain tanks for an eternity, and eventually calls and says " your aces have me, but I can't fold." Villain shows KK and it holds up.

I really couldn't put him on KK, but it is what it is.
You lost 67 BB's with AKs versus KK. That's totally fine man, nothing done wrong unless your villain just has AA or KK 100% of the time.

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Old 12-07-2017, 06:03 PM   #21
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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Originally Posted by fishstox94 View Post
Big take is that with AK suited I could have just called the min raise and seen a flop.
I don't think this is necessarily the takeaway. It's really opponent dependent.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:10 PM   #22
The Rumor
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

This is your reminder that loose passive V hate to fold overpairs, and if you had a hand like TT or 66 that called a 3 bet and nailed the flop, you'd have gotten a double up
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:13 PM   #23
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

Yah 67 BB’s deep we aren’t getting away from our hand when we decide to 4!. I would just nut mine multiway once you get 3!. You’re never GII better than 50/50 and often are in worse shape like this hand.

If I did 4!, I’m certainly jamming flop as we are have ~30% vs. QQ/JJ and need 30% to jam when called. So any time we can fold a made hand is a good thing for us. If he tanked with KK he probably let’s go of QQ-.
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:25 PM   #24
browni3141
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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Originally Posted by The Rumor View Post
This is your reminder that loose passive V hate to fold overpairs, and if you had a hand like TT or 66 that called a 3 bet and nailed the flop, you'd have gotten a double up
What's your point? So what if villain is unwilling to fold a hand he should not consider folding?
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:15 PM   #25
setintostraight
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Re: 1/3 hand advice

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Originally Posted by The Rumor View Post
This is your reminder that loose passive V hate to fold overpairs, and if you had a hand like TT or 66 that called a 3 bet and nailed the flop, you'd have gotten a double up
When we call a 3! against a typical LLSNL V who only 3! QQ+, we still need the set mining odds to be able to stack them. How often do you get set mining odds on a 3! in a typical LLSNL table?

Otherwise we are dominated by their higher PP and are just setting money on fire.

Btw I'm not even sure how it's relevant to this hand. Guy had KK with $200 behind. He wasn't folding, nor was it correct to fold on that flop for either of you.
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