This was at a $1/$3 game with a bunch of fish. This player sat down probably 30 min ago and seemed like a tag, but was betting huge (10x pre with 1 limper). He also was capable of making very big bluffs (shoved all in and was caught bluffing). However, based on conversations he was having, he was definitely a good thinking regular with a lot of experience.

I have 52 on the button and overlimp after the multiple limps in front.

Flop: T73

TAG leads about pot for $24. I call. Fish in bb shoved remaining $46. When it gets back to the TAG, he tried to make the raise huge to push me out of the pot to isolate the all in but then dealer mentioned he can't, so he calls and I call the $22.

Turn: 9

I now have a flush and he bets $55. I call.

River: K

He starts stacking chips to bet and at first it was around $75 and I was going to call since I know he his hyper aggressive post flop and my image (20 year old kid who looks young) would give off that I do not have as much experience as I have. However, I do have a big stack and cover everyone at the table so he knows I am probably a thinking player. He keeps stacking the chips and ends up making it $145. Hero ?

My thought process included many things obviously, but one main consideration that led me to fold was that it was a side pot and he would be bluffing a lot to win just the side pot as well as knowing that he would have to showdown his hand.

Fold pre. 52 is just garbage, and you probably know it is. Next to impossible to make the nuts with that hand. You actually ended up making a flush (which is hard to do), and you still don't know what to do.

I think most of us have those moments where we get bored, or overestimate our post-flop skills, and play garbage hands like these. Myself included. But in reality, it's bad poker, and it gets us in spots like these.

I can't tell you for certain if it was a good/bad lay down. But I can tell you it is an instafold pre.

ROFL...

Plays 1/3, just sat down 30 minutes ago. Opens 10x and got caught bluffing.

TAG? LOL.

But hey, if he talks like a duck, he must be a duck.

Fold pre.

Fold flop the first time.

AP call is fine second time OTF.

How deep are we? Might be raising turn, depending. Never folding river, might be raising.

I have to fold here. A straight flush is the only result you're going to feel real strong about taking it all the way. And you'd probably have to flop it, too.


Fold. Having to call $24 to win, what, $40ish? Having shoved all-in and missed (I assume, since you say he was caught bluffing), what's his stack size? Are the implied odds here even that strong? You mention he eventually bets $145, so did he buy back in for 300? Still. The odds don't seem right to call and, even if you hit the flush, it's a pretty small one that I couldn't even have a lot of confidence in when I face aggression.

Any other reads on the "fish"? With only $46 remaining, he could be on the same flush draw. I think, at this point, we have to assume we are behind both players, with only so many outs (8? the 10 could give one of these guys quads). Again, not to mention, someone else with a higher flush.

Also, at this point, what's your plan for the turn if there's no heart? Fold? Stay in for a certain amount? If the plan is to fold, then the flop call is definitely costing you money, considering a heart isn't going to come there near enough for you to stay in.

All your play was banking on catching your flush (it seems?). Now that you've caught it, you've gotta push it. Consider raising. Gotta call.

Or: re-evaluate limping with 52s and calling significant amounts trying to catch an 8-outer (that might not even be best, considering the baby flush).

I often think this: if I have to justify to my wife losing a good chunk of money, would I be able to justify this hand? I'm not sure I could get away with this one.

Stop calling other players fish. It's disrespectful and given your OP you would be a ''fish'' at many a table.

I like limping 52s on the button. It's a terrible hand but if I flop lucky, I can stack someone AND get great action on later hands. Position position position. I wouldn't call a raise here but limping behind, I'm ok with this. You might even raise this once in a while.
OTF, your flopped a flush draw but it's pretty small. Fold to the bet. I don't think you hit the flop hard enough to continue at this price.
As played, your called, then the action was raised. Now you're getting the right price, so call.
Turn: you hit. I'd consider raising because if another heart hits, your flush is in big trouble.
As played, river: I call. Every time. Draw to a flush, hit, board doesn't pair, and you fold. I hate this line. It seems that you put money in when behind then folded when likely ahead. Not winning poker. It's hard to make a flush. What hand do you out V on that you fold?
Would he open raise or limp w Axs preflop? Would he limp with it and then fire all streets? You have no reads on V except that in 30 mins, he's bluff shoved and he may be clueless on bet sizing. If these are my only two pieces of info, I'm not folding the river.

And sometimes when you flop lucky with it you lose all your chips to a better flush.

Stacks sizes are pretty important here.

If effective stacks are a buyin, just shove the turn.

If you're much deeper, just call. His line is a little flushy but we really can't be folding for $145 here if we're calling the turn.

I'm fine with you limping pre given the action, but if you do that, you have to be disciplined enough to fold on the flop, not call just because you see two hearts.

Yes, definitely. With this hand, I'd rather flop two pair or make a straight than the flush but depending on stacks, this can be deceptive and fun to play in position.

My issue on this hand history is calling the flop. I fold to a flop bet of this size. Price is not right.

Losing flush over flush stinks. I'll play Axs and Kxs depending on position and action. Suited connectors have value but even QJ has more value for straights than flushes, depending on board. And it's true that playing 52s is neg Ev. But on the button, limped pot, I'm looking to see flops with most any reasonable hand. With position and hopefully some skill, I can extract the most value possible or get away as cheaply as possible.

This hand, once H calls turn, why fold river? I wouldn't raise, but even a baby flush rates to win here a high percentage of the time.

I disagree folding pre. I am 300bb deep and adept post flop so I am not going to be blindly stacking off. Most of the table is 100bb deep or close to it. Some over 100bb deep. Also, this situation became difficult because this is a very unique player at this game. If this is a passive player, I am folding and fine with it. Also, making the flush or even two pair will allow me to get a ton of value versus the majority of these players.

lol

Fold pre. The situation is difficult because you decided to play a trash hand. There is nothing unique about this player, and with only 30 minutes of playing time with him, you certainly don't have enough information on him to make that judgment.

I love threads like this. To quote another poster (I can't find the thread), it's like the kid who calls up his dad and says, "Hey Dad, it's me... Don't ask me why I got drunk, don't ask me why I drove, and don't ask me why my car ended up in a 7-11. Please just come bail me out of jail so I don't get butt****ed tonight."

If you (incorrectly) insist that playing hands like this is +EV for you, then you're going to have to deal with a ton of marginal, difficult to navigate spots like this. Eventually you'll realize that it just isn't worth the tiny profit you might eventually be able to squeak out of them.

Fold pre and stop treating every suited hand in position like it's worth playing.

if you were an adept enough player to play this postflop...you wouldn't be posting this thread.

Also, something to keep in mind, the value of a hand like 52s goes down as your stack grows, because getting 200 bb+ in on a 3 flush board usually doesn't end up well for you with 5 high.

If you were an adept enough player you would have known how important effective stacks are when you posted this in the first place. Your 300BB stack is meaningless if Vs are at about 100Bbs.

I fold preflop. This hand just has way too much RIO, there's really not a single hand we want to make to play for stacks (flush, straight, trips, two pair: all of these can easily be dominated by better hands of the same type).

Facing a PSB means we have to make up 2 of these bets if we hit our flush. Do you think Villain has any read on us? If he sees us as nitty, and he seems to have a clue, then it's unlikely we're going to make up these bets. We could possibly rep a J/6 for an OESD to try to steal the pot from him on the turn. But he's led big into the world OOP, so even though he's been bluffing, it's unlikely he is this time, imo. We're basically only going to *perhaps* get paid off if he's flopped a huge hand like a set and can't bring himself to fold the turn, and we don't get sucked out on, and he doesn't actually have a monster draw (such as 98hh) that is bigger than ours. I nit fold the flop.

Need to know stack sizes to know what to do on the turn. If stacks are smaller, we're probably committed and should get them in now. If they are much larger, then we're cooler with just calling down.

After we show weakness by just calling the turn I'm probably calling the river, even though I don't feel great about it.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I would rather play 52s with a 100 BB effective stack than a 300 BB effective stack. It should be obvious why that is. If you are not playing 52s for the flush potential, than you might as well add 52o to your LP limping range and continue outplaying people with your adept-ness.

This is actually very wrong.

Think about it, you are basically saying that you rather play weaker hand with lower implied odds than with higher.

But the mistake of GII wrong with a 5-high flush is exponentially worse with a 300 BB stack than a 100 BB stack. Isn't that the whole point of RIO hands? The deeper you are, the bigger a mistake a RIO hand can have.

Correct.

But two scenarios are very different.

Deeper the stacks, wider the range, because implied odds is higher.

However, when entire stacks are getting in the pot, deeper the stack, narrower the range.

And naturally if you are better player than your opponent(s), your implied is higher and RIO is lower. Think about it: you are able to extract more chips when you are 60% favorite and lose less when you're 40%. Result: higher return.

Right.. I just think you see enough Axs and Kxs type hands (and connector hands, not necessarily suited) that make playing 52s rather pointless.

Totally outside the context of this discussion.