One of the problems with this is that we have no idea who our main Villain is going to be in an eleventeen way pot (which a $10 open at a typical 1/3 NL table is going to create). And by the time we figure that out, it's often too late. This again is one of the benefits of simply raising to thin the field, preferably to HU, where we know exactly who our Villain is and thus can play the resulting SPR appropriately against him.

Course, the better postflop poker player you are, the more you perhaps welcome these situations. I just think most of us aren't nearly the soul readers we need to be in these situations (or, at the very least, I'm not).

GcluelessNLnoobG

We're not afraid of getting outdrawn on. We're afraid that a very multiway pot is going to create a situation where we have little wiggle room postflop and can often set ourselves up to make the worst mistake in poker: folding the best hand in a big pot, or calling off our stack with the worst of it.

For example, let's take AA. We have a $300 stack and raise to $10. How many callers do you want? Are you cool going 10ways to the flop? If so, the pot will be $100 on the flop, and we only have $290 left, for an SPR of 3, which means the betting will be over by the turn (and often on the flop). Did we get outflopped? Or does someone simply think their TP is the nuts? Hope you make the right decision for the remaining 97% of your stack, having only gotten in a mere 3% of stacks preflop when you were certain you had the best hand.

Anyways, that's the reasoning behind wanting to thin the field preflop. I actually take a much harder line than others and think it is the *only* reason to raise preflop (with a couple of exceptions), but most disagree. But to those that disagree, they really have to prove to me they can play the above example profitably postflop, and I don't think most can.

GimoG

I advocated raising more pre. Not as a way to "thin the field" or make the hand easier to play. I want to raise more pre because I've got a very strong hand and am fairly certain to get action from worse - both pre and post. It just so happens that when we think about it in this way it also makes the hand play easier.

So are you cool with raising to $20 with these stacks and going 10ways to the flop with AA?

GcluelessNLnoobG

That's a wet dream scenario. SPR of 1.5ish with AA against a call-happy field? C'mon son...

I think I get what you're saying - AA may not be the best hand by the end in a 10-way. But we're going to get the lion's share of the $$$ if you ran a bunch of sims where we have AA versus the field. All it means is that in your scenario we're going to encounter a buttload of variance.

It's only a wet dream scenario if we get in ~stacks preflop (where obviously we'd love to go 10ways).

As soon as we get smaller and smaller percentages of stacks in preflop, it becomes far less enticing, and I'm guessing at some point becomes unprofitable. I'm guessing our strategy in this case is to never fold postflop, even if nitty McNit shoves (because TP will be seen as the nuts). But we're flying blind, wherease all 9 opponents without TP know exactly where they are, all getting in only 5% of their stack preflop while the latter preflop callers we're getting ~9:1 preflop with huge implied odds postflop.

In the end, even if sims somehow showed this result being profitable (and we both admit this is highly volatile, so hope we have our non-tilt underwear on), the real question is whether it is more profitable than getting this HU. I would argue no.

But, most of this comes down to a more realistic example where we go semi-multiway (not 10 way, not 3way, but more 5 or 6 way). If you're comfortable in these spots and believe they are profitable for you, then do as you do; if you don't feel comfortable in these spots and believe they aren't profitable for you, then start doing something different.

GnoskinoffmynoseeitherwayG

If you're not comfortable playing AA against a call-happy and passive field of 5-6, learn how to get comfortable. Learn how to accurately assess ranges. Learn how to get max value. Use your SPR and figure out what SPR is appropriate for each player.

I mean, it's freaking aces!!!! If we go 5 ways at $20 per, we've got an SPR of about 3. How difficult is it to play aces other than to get it in on the flop or turn on all but the absolute worst boards?

Sure, but in general I'd much rather raise to $20 and get 3 callers for a pot of $80 (OOP vs 3 opponents) then raise to $10 and get 7 callers for a pot of $80 (OOP vs 6 opponents) going to the flop. That would be true with AA and especially true of a hand like JJ.

+1

I'd also argue an even better result is 2 callers at $26, and even better than that is 1 caller at $40. The former is definitely possible at most 1/3 NL tables I've played at (although admittedly we sometimes unfortunately blow away the field), and the latter mostly always blows away the field (not good, so obviously have to size as reasonably as we can expect at our table).

GimoG

The game is 5 handed - the raise pre is fine imo.

It built a $50 pot

Results

You haven't answered why $10 is fine vs 15 or 20.

So I'll posit that it is 10 handed going to the flop and we GII on the flop there will be multiple people calling vs maybe one when it's 5-6 way. Well make more in the former scenario. What's your point?

Hope no offense is take when I say this, but your postflop play here is *horrible* (I doubt anyone in this thread would disagree). If you can't play these easy-peasy to play spots correctly, I doubt you can play the difficult situations correctly (fair?). And going very multiway to bloated pots OOP with TP type hands that don't flop the nutterbutters like it did here is unlikely to be profitable for you. So, again, I would reconsider preflop.

GimoG

If (for example) stacks are $300 and the final pot is $100 on the flop, people in the 10way pot got in a mere 3% of their stack getting 9:1 immediate odds and 30:1++ implied odds. People in the 5way pot got in 6% of their stack getting 5:1 immediate odds and 15:1+ implied odds. And people in the HU pot got in 17% of their stacks getting 1:1 immediate odds and 6:1 implied odds. No one in the 10way pot is making much of a mistake against AA (at least the overcallers closing the action); the person in the HU pot is making a horrendous mistake. True, there'll be a better chance of more people making a mistake postflop in the multiway pots, but also a far greater chance we'll be making one as well.

I'm guessing you'd have to sim it to confirm (which might be difficult with all the assumptions we'd have to make), but I'm fairly convinced we make a lot more money overall from latter to former.

ETA: To be fair, I should have created the same SPR in each spot, which I did not (it is slightly different, although pretty much in the same ballpark), but the point is the same.

GcluelesssimnoobG

It wasn't ideal but it's not horrible. At what stack depth does calling become better than raising?


As for making it $10 - $20 pre - Raising $20 UTG looks pretty strong. I know I have folded strong hands when people open $20 UTG - like KQo and AJ - This table it would of been fine, but $10 worked too.

Debatable, but nowhere remotely near an SPR of 7 (where we should always feel committed for stacks with a set).

You can take a poll, but I really think this is horrible. Board is drawy as hell, a zillion scare cards kill the action/hand, he's indicated he's ready to stack off now and yet we let him get all the way to the river for free. There will be close situations where you'll encounter ideal vs slightly less than ideal vs less than ideal options; this ain't one of them, imo.

ETA: I did a quick count, and it looks like the consensus is 11-0 for this being a super easy standard shove spot on the flop. I'm guessing most of those 11 will *hate* the call / check turn play.


Nice job folding KQo/AJo to raises (this is standard good play, imo). Hopefully your opponents are worse than you and will make some bad calls here.

Again, in your case (and it's possible I'm misreading too much into one very poorly played hand), your best bet is to not build bloated multiway pots OOP (which are very difficult to play for even the best of us). You'd be much better off narrowing the field, especially OOP, so err on the side of big raises (target 10% of stacks if you can); if it only takes down the blinds some of the time, oh well, you could make an argument that might be not a bad result for you. This concept you have of "building a pot" isn't necessarily the coup you think it is.

Gimo;goodluckG