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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 05-22-2018, 01:32 PM   #26
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

I suck at deepstack (really, the more I play the more I realize how out of my shortstack wheelhouse it is) but...

This deep I just flat preflop. I give pretty big respect to tight passive EP big raises, plus unless I'm getting setmining odds I'd plan on folding to all reraise cases, plus there's not exactly a crapload of dead money in the pot worth steal / worth flipping shorter stacks with, so let's just see a flop in position and go from there.

ETA: Obviously don't show. And this is one of the reasons I don't 3bet here preflop, because facing a 4bet and having to fold was reasonably likely and that's a disaster situation (imo).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 05-22-2018 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:36 PM   #27
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
Yeah I don't understand the logic of stacking off 230bbs deep with QQ against a range of {QQ+, AK}...
Yeah, and if a tightish lady is willing to get in a whopping $700 stack in my game then her range is heavily weighted to AA / some KK / pretty much nothing else.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:40 PM   #28
shorn7
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

At first my thought was "auto 3! for value 100% of the time", but then I wonder if her only two responses are 4! or fold and she NEVER just calls, is that the right play? We are definitely deep enough IP to call and play some poker with an opponent that we think we have a very good read on. Plus we have the fish in the pot too who is going to donate with any piece of most boards.

I actually think this specific spot might be close thinking about it away from the table. At the table I probably still 3! and fold (not showing, NFW).
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:02 PM   #29
WereBeer
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
ETA: Obviously don't show. And this is one of the reasons I don't 3bet here preflop, because facing a 4bet and having to fold was reasonably likely and that's a disaster situation (imo).
Making a value 3bet with QQ and having to fold to a 4bet is not a disaster, any more than it's a disaster to open on CO with KJo and fold to a 3bet out of the blinds or to 3bet pre with KK and have to fold on an A high flop.

It's correct to make fat value raises but then have to fold when something else happens that means continuing is not good poker.

The only thing I would say is that we should rethink 3betting if we have enough information to really narrow her range down so that QQ is a dog. If that's the case it seems to me we should just set mine. But OP does not have that read.

Last edited by WereBeer; 05-22-2018 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:18 PM   #30
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Having to fold KJo versus QQ to a preflop 4bet aren't remotely the same, imo, mainly due to the IO. KJo has very poor IO against anything it can outflop while QQ has massive IO setmining against KK+ (and if we don't suck postflop and accurately range a tight-passive lady continuing to bet multiple streets on 9 high flops we shouldn't lose that much postflop).

And on top of all that we still have the fish in the hand (seeing a flop with a fish is a good thing, and being raised off that opportunity is a bad thing).

And on top of all that, we're pretty deep. Hand values start converging here preflop, and there's more merit to just playing postflop poker in position, imo.

Gbut:Iadmittedlyamnotconfidentinmydeepstackstrateg yG
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:56 PM   #31
WereBeer
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

They’re the same in that we make a value raise and then fold because continuing would be bad.

A cornerstone of winning poker is increasing pot size when we’re ahead, that doesn’t become irrelevant just because stacks are deeper. It’s OK to make correct actions and then reverse course as more information becomes available to us.

I can actually get behind a call in this exact situation because bet sizing tells from passive fish tend to be ultra nutted. But if we say this range is more like 99+/AQ+/KQ and a few suited broadways, so tight but not completely premium, are you still flatting? Because I think that leaves money on the table.

Edit

Raising the fish off is a non-objection IMO, since conversely our risk is not playing a fish with a weaker range in position with a vastly bloated pot. Much more profitable.
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:32 PM   #32
Stupidbanana
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

lmao I love these threads...

"V1 loose passive fish can barely play, V2 some other loser..

Hero rock solid with TAG image has been lighting up the table, table captain blah blah...

..V1 opens, V2 calls, Hero gets put in a standard position and doesn't know what to do or how to size bets or basically how to react at all"

I'm dead.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:46 PM   #33
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBeer View Post
Itís OK to make correct actions and then reverse course as more information becomes available to us.
yes and i would argue that 3betting pre allows us to do this more effectively than flatting.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:06 PM   #34
cheesefist
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
A larger that usual bet is typically JJ, which doesn't want a call.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsilver View Post
True in mid stages mtt play, less true from passive llsnl where I play.
Yeah, I am enormously hesitant to think I am right and Venice is wrong, but I more often see passive 1/2 players limp JJ and make surprisingly large EP bets with KK+.

80+% of the time QQ is an auto 3bet, but against a player where sizing tell alarm bells go off and where I think I have zero fold equity to a 3bet and am very often behind, I'm gonna just flat this.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:54 PM   #35
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

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Originally Posted by cheesefist View Post
Yeah, I am enormously hesitant to think I am right and Venice is wrong, but I more often see passive 1/2 players limp JJ and make surprisingly large EP bets with KK+.

80+% of the time QQ is an auto 3bet, but against a player where sizing tell alarm bells go off and where I think I have zero fold equity to a 3bet and am very often behind, I'm gonna just flat this.
i think JJ and AK are more likely to skew to big bets for a villain like this than KK+. you certainly see both but usually these villains have a conundrum with those hands where they know they should raise but hate getting 4 callers a lot more than when they get 4 callers with AA.

they are often also somewhat aware of their image. they're not as bummed out when they raise and everyone folds when they have JJ as they are when they have AA.

that's been my experience.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:17 AM   #36
Joey913
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Does anyone who likes 3! this pre think this described villain's range is wider than TT+/AK/AQ? If not, I still don't understand the 3! pre.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:07 AM   #37
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

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Originally Posted by cheesefist View Post
but I more often see passive 1/2 players limp JJ and make surprisingly large EP bets with KK+.
I think my experience skews towards this as well, with mainly smallish raises with stuff like JJ/TT/AK/AQ and really large raises with KK+ (sometimes QQ). I think people mainly don't have nearly as much pot entitlement / you're-not-gonna-suck-out-on-me-for-free attitude with the smaller hands as they do the larger hands. Which is why I typically give big respect to big EP raises, although obviously player dependent.

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Old 05-24-2018, 12:35 AM   #38
Badreg2017
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

The biggest mistake is showing your hand.

Iím usually 3 betting, sometimes calling. The sizing makes me more inclined to flat.

Snap folding to her 4 bet.
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Old 05-24-2018, 05:18 AM   #39
venice10
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
No, this isnt neccesarily the case. Its not like youre not ever 3 betting QQ in whatever scenario: if we choose to not 3 bet here (wich i think we should) its because of 1)our read on the villain as tight passive, limp/callhappy then suddenly opens big from early pos and 2) heros sizingread on villain wich skews her range towards nutted hands.
It really depends on what the OP means by "occasionally." There are certainly passive players that only raise QQ+. They would only be raising about 1.4% of the time. That would work out to be about once every 3 hours or so. In reading a lot of OP's hand histories, I don't think that would stick out in his mind as "occasional." He would think of it more like "never." My guess is that is that it would be once or twice an hour. That suggests a range more like TT+, AQ+.

I think we'd agree how to play this if we had a more defined range than "occasional."
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Old 05-24-2018, 05:48 AM   #40
oldsilver
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Strangely enough, the higher you play in our room 5/5, 5/10/20, the more common it is to limp EP with all JJ/AK+ and limp/raise to iso. Its so predictable from certain players, that certain other players bring a kazoo to the table to blow and warn others.
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