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Old 05-21-2018, 07:47 PM   #1
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1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

$1/$3, 9-handed

Indian Woman ($1100) - Somewhat tight-passive. Usually only bets with medium to strong hands and doesn't usually get too out of line. Occasionally she will raise pre but mostly does a lot of limp-calling.

Asian Fish ($600) - Very loose-passive. Does some dumb stuff like donking 20% pot.

Hero ($700) - TAG image, but has made a few light 3bets recently.

Hero is dealt Qs Qc on BTN
Indian Woman raises $20 UTG (this is a much larger than usual raise size)
Asian fish calls $20 MP
Hero on BTN ???

Do we flat or squeeze here? And if we squeeze, how should we react to the following:
1) Indian Woman 4bets, Asian fish folds?
2) Indian woman 4bets, Asian fish calls?
3) Indian woman flats, Asian fish backraises?
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Old 05-21-2018, 07:55 PM   #2
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

You're deep enough to call and re-evaluate post-flop. If she's pretty straightforward it should be easy to fold if she double barrels a small card flop+turn. Normally you want to squeeze here but you're basically saying here that her range is pretty nutted. You can take control post-flop if she checks a safe board to you.

1) Probably fold cause you won't be deep enough anymore and 4b from this lady is the nuts
2) Do the math when it happens
3) All you can eat, baby
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:04 PM   #3
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

I feel the need to squeeze because we are giving up a lot of value against Asian fish by flatting.

The situations you describe are all easy folds. The tricky situations are postflop when Indian lady flats.
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:05 PM   #4
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

it's hard to construct an open/4b range for her without more reads. i'm almost always 3b this for value here. in all cases where she 4bets i'm either getting it in or folding depending on whether AK is in her 4bet range. villains like this often will only 4b with KK+ there so lean towards a fold without any other reads/info. but I'd have to be at the table. if she flats and Asian Fish backraises we soulread.

sorry no clear cut answers but spots like this are just close.
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:09 PM   #5
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Flat now, folding to all your scenarios if we 3! Against described V1 I would assign her opening range UTG at widestto be TT+/AK/AQ so I don't see the 3! point. Yeah we let V2 come along for free but oh well.
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:09 PM   #6
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Why would you get it in if AK is in her 4b range? You only have 40% equity against QQ+, AK.
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:17 PM   #7
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

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Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
Why would you get it in if AK is in her 4b range? You only have 40% equity against QQ+, AK.
Yeah I don't understand the logic of stacking off 230bbs deep with QQ against a range of {QQ+, AK}...
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:19 PM   #8
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

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Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
I feel the need to squeeze because we are giving up a lot of value against Asian fish by flatting.
Depends. OP didn't say whether Asian fish is a calling station or not. I think if he's a calling station I'd rather get my value post-flop if Indian lady reps AQ/AK and misses and gives up control.
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:22 PM   #9
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Loose-passive = calling station
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:25 PM   #10
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

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Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
Loose-passive = calling station
Sorry, you're right, I meant more along being sticky though, as opposed to just being non-aggressive postflop.

As far as the squeeze, we want to squeeze for value but that doesn't work out very well vs. a very strong V1 range without her having a much smaller stack than the loose-passive fish. If she had $250 and he had $700 effective I think a squeeze would make a lot more sense. I just don't see what a squeeze here accomplish besides possibly isolating you with the person who has a nutted range and possibly folding out the person you actually wanted to keep in. It sounds counter-productive to me.
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Old 05-21-2018, 09:26 PM   #11
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

I think calling and set mining is better against described V. She should play face up post and if she checks at any point, you’re in front. V2 is just juicing the pot, let him. Probably has KTo or some rubbish. Hopefully he hits the T.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:00 PM   #12
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
Why would you get it in if AK is in her 4b range? You only have 40% equity against QQ+, AK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
Yeah I don't understand the logic of stacking off 230bbs deep with QQ against a range of {QQ+, AK}...
you're right, brain fart, not GII
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Old 05-22-2018, 03:46 AM   #13
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Results:
Spoiler:
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:16 AM   #14
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

The flop was Q32r but you never saw it
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:02 AM   #15
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
Results:
Spoiler:
Why do you give her free info? You already have 99% certainty that she has KK+, you don't need her to show her cards, so don't show yours.
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:45 AM   #16
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

I saw spoilers but am OK with either flat or 3bet here.

If you have a big bet sizing tell vs. a TAGfish I think I prefer a flat because you fold out worse.

If she's just flatting everything she opened though you can 3bet for value unless you view her range as QQ+/AK in which case you may as well flat and play poker vs. a defined range.

I fold to 4bets from either TBH though it would suck balls if she flats a 3bet and he 4bets. I guess you have to range it, you could potentially ship but I'd want more info than occasional ******ation to jam in that scenario.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:13 AM   #17
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

A larger that usual bet is typically JJ, which doesn't want a call. QQ is the third best starting hand in poker. If you aren't 3betting with it in this situation, you're going to be very easy to read.

Note that when she 4 bets, you can easily fold.

I'd "+1" to the do not show comment. You're trying to go pro and you gave great information that you can lay down QQ pf. Expect over time to bet 4 bet more often, especially if you are now experimenting with 3 betting light. You're most likely over doing it. About once every 3 hours or so is about as much as you can expect to get away with it at low stakes.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:59 AM   #18
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Given her tendencies I flat and see the flop, large odds its QQ+ so you have to consider stack size
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:04 AM   #19
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
A larger that usual bet is typically JJ, which doesn't want a call. QQ is the third best starting hand in poker. If you aren't 3betting with it in this situation, you're going to be very easy to read.

Note that when she 4 bets, you can easily fold.

I'd "+1" to the do not show comment. You're trying to go pro and you gave great information that you can lay down QQ pf. Expect over time to bet 4 bet more often, especially if you are now experimenting with 3 betting light. You're most likely over doing it. About once every 3 hours or so is about as much as you can expect to get away with it at low stakes.
No, this isnt neccesarily the case. Its not like youre not ever 3 betting QQ in whatever scenario: if we choose to not 3 bet here (wich i think we should) its because of 1)our read on the villain as tight passive, limp/callhappy then suddenly opens big from early pos and 2) heros sizingread on villain wich skews her range towards nutted hands.

Hero its not gonna be easy to read or play against because of a certain exploitative line in very spesific scenario against a spesific villain. The samples will be way way too small and be happenning over a huge amount of time for this dynamic to develope of hero being predictable. Most of the time if we flat QQ nobody is gonna know what we have either.

Last edited by Petrucci; 05-22-2018 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:13 AM   #20
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

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A larger that usual bet is typically JJ, which doesn't want a call.
True in mid stages mtt play, less true from passive llsnl where I play.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:03 AM   #21
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Can anyone who advocates 3! pre construct their idea of Vs opening range based on OPs descripton?
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:26 AM   #22
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

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Originally Posted by Joey913 View Post
Can anyone who advocates 3! pre construct their idea of Vs opening range based on OPs descripton?
Well I initially gave her 2 possible ranges:
Best case scenario: {TT+, AQ+}
Worst case scenario: {QQ+, AK}

So I guess we just go with 100% combos of QQ/KK/AA/AK and then 50% combos of TT/JJ/AQ.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:53 AM   #23
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

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Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
So I guess we just go with 100% combos of QQ/KK/AA/AK and then 50% combos of TT/JJ/AQ.
You've got 54.5% equity vs. TT+/AQ+, if you weigh TT/JJ/AQ less then a 3b still isn't for value straight up vs. her range, it's just to isolate.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:00 AM   #24
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
Well I initially gave her 2 possible ranges:
Best case scenario: {TT+, AQ+}
Worst case scenario: {QQ+, AK}

So I guess we just go with 100% combos of QQ/KK/AA/AK and then 50% combos of TT/JJ/AQ.
I think these ranges are pretty spot on. But if we agree on these ranges, why does 3! make sense? It seems like at best, our QQ is right in the middle of her raising range.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:37 PM   #25
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Re: 1/3 - Flat or 3bet with QQ?

the equities are close but it's more about playability. i'd put her at {JJ+, AK} which we have 47% against, plus some TT/AQ in there sometimes, but I agree with weighting them lower. so we have around 50% equity. if we flat and she c-bets, we're usually calling 1 street with little to discern her overs from her overpairs. 3b preflop we usually get calls from JJ and AK which we beat and take a flop with the betting lead and better information, which has value that grows exponentially if the hand goes past the flop. meanwhile we get 4b by KK+ which beats us and we can make a correct fold preflop.

so we're not 3b for value strictly speaking in that we don't have a significant overlay, but that's not always necessary to raise for value if the way villain reacts is well correlated with her hand strength and we gain information that helps us maximize value later on in the hand when we're ahead (and when the pot is much bigger) or minimize losses when we're behind.

there's a reason the quintessential bad beat thread starts with "so i limped aces" so often. it's because massively under-repping your holdings introduces big disturbances to the natural flow of the hand to which few players are able to make the proper adjustments.

i'm pretty much always 3b QQ here.

and also ya don't show.
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