This a loose / splashy table where people did not like to fold pre and post

300eff

H(UTG) - tight image

V1 (UTG +1) - loose player pre but really gambles post, shoving turn with bottom pair, mid pair, TP, air on top of other villains field bets or pfr dbl barrels

V2 (UTG+2) - loose/passive player

V3 (SB) - Tighter than V1, but still too loose. Seems straightforward.

H opens UTG 15 w/AK V1,V2,V3 call

Flop J94 (60)
V3 leads 25, Hero?? I end up flatting, V1 calls , V2 folds

How do you guys play flop as the PFR - should I flat the NFD with SDV and overs and raise weaker fds without SDV?

Turn J (135)
V3 leads $70, Hero folds, V1 shoves and V3 calls

I think fold is ok? Didn't think my overcard outs were clean with TP pairing. Please critique.

Theres no way Im not cramming it in on the flop. There's enough worse draws that can call us and a 3 way all in is fine with our hand.

Plus, there is still some fold equity against Jx. Definitely fold equity against 9x and 4x. Even if Jx calls we are in a fist pump +EV spot.

If someone wakes up with 2 pair+ behind us, they would have raised and we would have gotten it in on the flop anyway. Might as well lay the hammer and generate some folds when there is $85 of dead money out there.

You may say jamming turns our hand face up. F*** it then. If some guy wants to take the piss and call as an underdog then be my guest.

You played it fine. I would raise the flop a lot of times but probably not vs these guys.

A guy leads $25 into a $60 pot and you're going to shove to $275? That's the most obvious FD ever. Its not terrible since you do have a ton of outs and that play is impossible to defend against, but against these particular players I think we want to hit our hand first and then pile chips in.

They probably arent folding Jx on the flop. Why get all in as a coin flip and very little FE, when you got such a good price to hit your hand on the turn and then get all in as a big favorite?

These guys are precisely the type of guys you would want to a raise. The reason is that their calling ranges wont be snug and they will call with straight draws and worse flush draws that we absolutely dominate.

In a game full of nits, I much more likely to flat since I will only get snapped off by 2 pair plus.

Jx will likely give me a free card on the turn. And if the nit bombs it then he probably flopped 2 pair + and saved me a sh** ton of money by playing his hand face up.

Our position against the field sucks and spiking an A or K on the turn could be massive RIO.

Shoving flop eliminates any huge pay off mistakes we make, plus it eliminates any chance we fold the best hand if we whiff on the turn. It negates our positional disadvantage and encourages weaker draws to cram the money in now as a big dog. Plus the additional FE is absolutely fine by me. $85 of dead money is nothing to scoff at in a 1/3 game.

How are you getting a free card when you said you were "cramming it in" on the flop. I assumed you meant you were going all in on the flop?

You have this backwards. Against nits, you want to raise the flop (possibly all in) because they will never call without 2 pair plus and they will almost never have 2 pair plus. The rare times they can call, you still have plenty of outs.

These muppets we are playing against in this hand WILL call with Jx and better so we have much less FE. We really want them to fold when we shove. We have no indication from OP that they will call an all in with a draw. He said they will spazz and shove with any pair but he didnt say anything about them calling huge bets with weak hands. Its better to hit our hand on the turn and let them bombs away into us.

Against these type players Id be more likely to shove the flop if the guy led full pot into me and I wasnt getting a ridiculous price.

Wow. You really dont get it. Nevermind.

I do get.

You want to make the best hand before you make a big bet.

The problem is, unless the turn is a spade, we are not in that great of a spot. We are only going to hit a spade 18% of the time. Spiking an A or K sometimes will make the best hand, but sometimes we will get owned since it will make 2pair for someone else and then we will cram the money in on the turn as a huge dog.

There's also the chance that a spade on the turn can kill the action and straight draws will stop chasing and Jx will slow down and stop putting any more big $ in the pot. If we get big action when the flush hits, that means we would have gotten big action on the FLOP against these worse flush draws.


You cant refute my logic. A flop jam can get called by WORSE and can fold out better.And the times it gets called by a pair it is often in a con flip situation for $85 of dead money (which is a really big win for 1/3 NL). Even MORE, it encourages a straight draw to get the money in in case we are up against a third opponent who flopped 2 pair or set allowing us to have a 3-way all in with favorable odds.

It's the perfect play in this spot.

YoU caNt reFUte mY Logic. A flOp jaM Can gEt caLLed by wOrSe anD cAn fOld oUt beTTeR. ItS tHe pErFect pLaY iN tHIs SpOt.

Lets see you break down the hand troll

Its the perfect play against nits and regs. Its not the perfect play against these guys. You want max FE for this play to be correct.

Why are you worried about calling the flop bet and then getting stacked on the turn if its an A or K and they hit 2 pair? You're getting stacked in that scenario by shoving the flop also because these guys aren't folding AJ or KJ to a flop shove.

You're contradicting yourself all over the place. Does "cramming it all in" on the flop mean you want to shove? Because your next post said you might get a free card on the turn.

You said they will call a shove with a weaker FD. Its unlikely that's what they have, but now you are suddenly worried about a spade killing your action. Well, if they have a weaker FD, its not killing any action.

They are never folding a flush. They WILL fold a flush draw to a huge all in raise a fair amount of the time.

Who cares if the spade only comes 18% of the time on the turn? We only needed 23% equity to call the flop bet because the guy bet so small. We almost have direct odds to call. Again, raising is a great play against nits and regs who are weak tight. Its much less good against players like these.

The point is that if the guy isnt folding Jx to a flop shove and he gives you great odds to draw, shoving is not a great play.

If V calls with Jx it's an $85 flip. That's almost 1/3rd of the effective stacks. It may seem trivial but at these stakes I'd argue that's worth piling in the money to fight over.

I said against "nits" we would likely get a free turn card if V is holding Jx. In aggro games, such as this, we are extremely unlikely to get a free turn card from our opponent. Having to fold the turn with this hand is a serious disaster.


If our opponents have worse flush draws, sure, flatting the flop keeps them in, but that also means we have to fade 2 unpaired cards on the turn that could possibly give them the best hand. Not to mention outs that could make them their straight. Or an innocuous looking turn card could give our opponent 2 pair to go along with their 4x. Folding out our opponents that have position on us is not a bad thing.


If we don't make our flush on the turn, then we will be stuck OOP in a bloated multiway pot with 1/2th of the equity that we had on the flop. Our opponents that have position can outplay us if they semibluff jam the turn and we fold the best hand, or if they slowplayed a monster, or sucked out on the turn and we get the money in bad by calling it off on the turn.


If we had just gotten the money in on the flop, a slowplayed monster in late position would call and that would encourage Jx or a draw to call, which gives us adequate odds to draw to the flush on the flop.


You are looking at this spot from a very black and white view. Bluff guys that fold. Don't bluff guys that call. But this spot is more nuanced due to the multiway aspect and due to the fact that our opponents calling ranges include draws and not just made hands.

You have to admit. Shoving (when we are the PFR) is probably going to get folds atleast 25% of time against Jx. That's an additional $20 or so of EV that we can tack on to making this play.


You say it yourself, raising over a donk lead when we are the PFR generates a lot of folds. I get it. These guys are clowns. But we really aren't sweating a call at all with Jx. Not at these stack sizes.


Im worried about an A or K coming that completes K9, K4, A4, A9. A flop jam gets all of the 9x and 4x combos to fold. Flatting the flop and keeping the SPR high is a disaster when one of these players binks a disguised 2 pair and we pay them off when we could have raised them out of the hand.

We will have to agree to disagree. Your points are valid but much more valid against good players. I will raise this flop all day long against lots of people, but just not against these donks.

These are the type of players that will shove middle pair even after the flush hits trying to push us around. I play stack a donk against them.

What makes you think that there is any reasonable chance that this will be a 3-way all-in?

how do you like making it 80-100 and jaming turn? vs jamming flop?

Im saying if it were to happen then we would be fine with it. Its a lot more likely to happen at a table full of splashy villains on a soaking wet board.

Its kind of the same thing as a jam but I don't like it as much because it wont have as much FE against Jx.

It can also allow our opponents to get away from their draw, or possibly Jx if the turn card brings a big fat spade.

Would also suck to make a hopeless no FE jam if the board brings a brick.

I definitely I agree with MikeStarr here about flatting the flop. Against tighter / more skilled opponents, I'd raise the flop. But here, we have a hand that plays well multi-way, you're likely going to have overcalls from these opponents so you're way getting the right odds here just for the spades, so why jam and push out weak hands like 2nd or 3rd pair?

bodybuilder, it sounds like you're keen to GII because you think worse hands will call, but while we don't mind a 3 way all-in OTF, getting it in with a FD and 2 overcards is not exactly the goal is it? It's just that we don't mind it if it happens.

Turn card was terrible for us; A's and K's on the river may very well be no good anymore, so I agree with the fold.

I think I would've played this the exact same way.

Calling the flop bet here, especially with these loose players who will make calling mistakes otf and call too light w/ draws and pairs, is pretty standard as it gets.... if you raise you're giving the other donks opportunities to fold their gutshots or whatever trash they have and they certainly are not calling off 100bb with bottom pair or gutshot + bd spades

Turn fine ap, well OP.