Hero (550) UTG+2 - Most of table knows me as a winning player. I should have a TAG image, not sure how Villain perceived me though.

V1 (300) SB - Young WG. Fishy, overvalued hands, likes to bluff.

V2 (700) CO - MAWG. I think he likes to bluff, and seems very fishy. Tried to minraise a $45 river bet, but only put out $80. It was deemed a call. He flipped over bottom pair, and was good against V1’s bluff.

OTTH:

UTG, Hero (K10ss), CO, SB, BB limp.

I know this will get a lot of fold pre comments. However, the table was generally weak passive, and a lot of people like to see cheap flops. I wasn’t too worried about getting raised.

Flop ($15)
9s 8c 10d

V1 leads 15, Hero calls, V2 raises to 45. SB folds, Hero calls.

In a limped pot, I would generally lean fold here. However with the BDFD to the second nuts, I figured I was not in bad shape to play some turns.

Turn ($120)
7s

Check check

I debated leading this turn, but I did put a lot of pair and OESDs in V2’s range. My plan was to x/c.

River ($120)
4s

Hero leads $85, V2 thinks for 10 seconds and then raises to $300.

Hero has $417 left. Are we shoving always here? Or do we only expect to get called by the nuts. My hand is well disguised, but was unsure if I would be value owning myself at LLSNL.


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Villain raised to $300. You have $417 left. There's no way hes only calling another $117 with the nuts. He's just about never folding. If you dont shove here, you need a KITN.

PS..Id like to know how V2s raise to $80 was only a call in that other hand.

With us blocking ATss, I don't see us losing to anything except AJss here. And he wouldn't raise flop/check turn with that hand.

OTOH, he might have something like T8ss here that plays exactly this way and thinks he binked a hidden flush that's almost always good here.

Can't have T8ss as we hold the T.

This is a fist-pump shove IMO with V most likely holding QJss or some other spade suited hand containing the Js. If he has AsJs, then it is a total cooler and you were destined to lose it all. Hell, he might only have a str8 and was waiting for the river to get value.

Villain raises to 300 total, so 215 on top of my raise. He has to call an additional 212 if I shove.

In our card room, the raise must be double to be considered a raise. Throwing out less than a min raise results in a call.


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While I am looking mostly at the river decision, would appreciate comments on all streets.


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Calling the flop raise is pretty bad. Really bad. Limping the hand OOP preflop is marginal but OK if you play well post flop and know when to get away from a hand and how to maximize profits in the right spots. This is the exact opposite of that. What hands do you put him on when he raises that you think you can continue against OOP?

The raise with KTs isnt bad, but just to be clear, id rather raise 85s from the button in a limped pot than KTs from UTG (I personally probably play both at bad weak passive tables, but just be aware that if youre widening your range a bit by widening your OOP range, youre doing it wrong. I only mention this because you might shake that icky TAG image if you were playing a 40% button range)

OTR im just calling I think. He folds all his bluffs of course, and is calling ANY value hand, but I dont think he is ever checking back a J on the turn and then raising it on the river, so im figuring A8s A7s, AJs is what youre contending with here. QJs isnt going to call flop checkback turn. He is probably bluffing plenty here but I think his value range.

At best its a marginal ship, but id say its somewhat unnecessary variance to raise, and I dont think its a huge amount of EV either direction

Pre flop, if you are playing this, it should be a raise.. I do not like the limp, but if I open, I am raising...
Post flop is good, and I do not mind the X on the turn with 4 to a straight. If you bet, V could easily x/r.
When the flush hits the river, I like the river bet. I think the back door flush is hidden well enough and I GII... I am guessing that V shows QJ for the flopped nut straight...

pre is a fold or a loose raise

Turn call is almost spew with little back door equity

Since he raised the flop and also raised the river, if he flopped or turned a straight, he wound't have a flush since the spades that make up his straight are on the board so I think it's a snap call. We only lose to AT

Edit: and this is the icing on the cake

Pre-flop is whatever. I don't really mind the limp w/ KTs if you play well post. On that point, calling the first raise was meh, calling the second was bad. Turn is obvious. River is a tough one. Most players don't raise to $300 on the river w/o the nuts, but many do. I probably call, but I might shove. Never folding against this guy, but I'd be ready to reload.

Don't limp. Were opening to start define a range not because we might get raised if we limp. Also I doubt anyone is folding this pre should be a standard open.

Flop is tough if this villain is gonna blast 2 or 3 streets so I'm probably just folding to the raise.

River: I like the sizing and we snap all in after getting raised.

River seems like a mandatory jam, it would be quite surprising for villain to have the nut flush given his line on flop

Villain checking back the turn does increase the chances he raised the flop with something like asjs/as7s but probably not enough to favor a call>jam, not when player is described as fishy and might be slowplaying a flopped straight for example

At very weak passive calling station tables, I would be fine over limping this preflop in EP. My tables typically don't play like that any more, so now I fold this in EP.

I probably just fold the flop. We have TP2K but no redraw on a board that easily smashes people, plus we have at least one guy behind us still to react. I don't absolutely hate the call, but I don't like it either, and in these small rake-raped pots when someone donks into the world (a strong move) I would typically lean to giving up easily. Really hate calling the raise OOP. I'm assuming we're planning on making a move if a 4-to-a-straight comes in, cuz otherwise we're setting money on fire if we're mostly just banking on a backdoor flush draw. Preflop is getting to be a real easy fold if we're playing postflop like this, imo.

I'm assuming this was the card we were calling the flop for, and now we're just planning on check/calling? Is our plan to then bluff the river if we whiff? Do we have a plan? Given the river play, it honestly just looks like we called the flop to hope to go runner runner, which is horrible.

River is pretty interesting. I guess against a guy who can bluff (which means he can probably also raise without the nuts) I'd lean towards a shove especially since I don't think any actual made hand that raises to $300 is going to be able to fold for what little left we have). But on the other hand river raises are just so often limited to the nuts (as people fear being reraised and having to face a tough decision with hands even as strong as the second nuts).

Gfoldpreflop,imoG

Raise or fold pre. X/c flop. [EDIT: My bad, I thought you lead the flop] River is absolutely a call at minimum or a jam. V2 could turn up with the one hand that beats you, but there is nothing here to convince me that he won't do this with a straight or Asxx.

The rule "Don't go broke in a limped pot" rears its head yet again.

Agree with this. A8ss and A6ss are also in range, but those would be ballsy flop raises. If the A-high flushes are included as head-scratchers, then so are Q6s, Q8s, QJs, J8s, J6s, 86s, then also JTo and other bluffy stuff. It feels like the range that would raise and call an AI is at least 60% stuff you beat (other BD flushes and some J-hi straights).

p.s. I hate flop; preflop is loose but might be able to get away with it.

I completely misread this entire hand, so dont listen to this advice.

Fold or raise pre. Fold to flop raise i guess. This is all a stupid as all hell limped pot that i dont care about so its your fault if you lost a bunch of money.

Youre playing like the fish. "its a weak passive table, better be weak passive!"

Appreciate all the advice. I’m leaning that I should have raised pre instead.

While I’m not advocating that I played any street correctly, I had convinced myself that V had a lot of bluffs in his range (given the minraise hand I had described earlier), and that my TP might be good. The BDFD was not the sole reason I called, but it definitely gave me more incentive to call.

On the turn, I was planning to x/f unimproved, and x/f to a large bet even if I hit a spade.



Also, there was only one raise on the flop, and no bets on the turn for those confused. The SB led the flop, but his range is ATC, which I was happy to call against.


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If you're not going to narrow the field with a raise from EP after a limper (which you often won't in a typical loose table), then raising an extremely marginal hand like KTs is pretty overrated, imo. All it does is create a small SPR situation, OOP, multiway, with a hand that doesn't want to entertain pot commitment decisions with just one pair (and yet that is the spot you'll most often end up in).

GimoG