If I had flush. I would definitely being shoving. Pot size bet vs very strong range.

HOC actually addresses this a bit; he takes the same side I do, in that it isn't as clear cut as you're making it out to be. While we can force "mistakes" by raising preflop which we can't do by overlimping (especially by allowing the straddle to see a free flop), this doesn't necessarily mean it's the most correct thing to do. After all, this preflop mistake can be a rather small one in terms of $$$. If we allow worse players to see a flop with us in position (rather than perhaps folding them out preflop), that puts their whole stack at risk, which can be a much bigger benefit. Also, limping allows us to simply fold preflop for relatively cheap when necessary (which is what I would have done in this case). It also prevents building huge bloated multiway pots with hands that rarely want huge bloated multiway pots.

Goverlimpinghereisnotnearlyasbadasothersaremakingi touttobe,imoG

What page is that? Haven't read that book in super long time. But I have hard time believin he suggest over limping a straddled pot and folding KQo

If he does, I need to send him present for making squeazing so profitable over the years

Think about the best regs in your game, do they ever limp? I know the answer to this one. Mathematically it makes the most sense to raise hands, this helps combat rake, which is a big issue at low stakes. I think your problem is that you're more concerned with losing a few more $ right now than you are with odds & long term results.

As for the hand, villain has a flush most of the time, regardless of the fact that you can't seem to put him on a combo. Wouldn't surprise me if he has some sorta weird hand like 8h5h and doesn't want a 4th heart on board. Occasionally he has 77 or a random spaz Kx. Either way given your fh/flush outs I'd guess we have odds to call based on the odds given.

It's not necessarily about KQo; it's more about in his preflop explanation of exploring the concept of open limping in LP (even on the Button) versus open raising. He concludes (correctly, imo) that there are times that open limping (even in LP) is perfectly acceptable.

As for KQo itself, if you look at his preflop raising requirements (i.e. hands that he is super happy to raise after multiple limpers), KQo ain't one of them. Course, in this spot we only have one limper, so that changes things. But he'd factor in other things as well (the chances of actually being able to isolate after a straddle + a limp + a loose guy in the blinds, also randomizing play with our range, etc.). To be honest, up until ~recently I've always thought HOC was too tight regarding preflop raising (especially after a limper or two), but I've now come around (a bit full circle) to thinking playing passively preflop in position with non-monsters is perfectly fine (although obviously there are arguments for doing otherwise).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I'm one of the best regs in my game (admittedly, that's really not saying much, but it is what it is). And I currently have an almost 0% raising range in EP/MP now.

I'm not for a second saying there aren't other ways to play, but those stating that overlimping KQo after a straddle + a limp + a loose guy in blinds is horrible or somehow "mathematically incorrect" (as well as the more general concept of "raising right / limping wrong") are just off base. You can raise. You can limp. There are a zillion "it depends" conditions that will dictate which may likely be more profitable than the other.

Regarding KQo in general, it's a pretty meh hand. Here we were basically as nuttish as we were going to be at every point and yet at no point did we feel great about putting in money, so I'm not sure why we're gung ho about building big pots with it.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I think people arguing about over-limping vs. calling pre need to realize how live games usually play. Firstly, you need to determine what is the point of raising pre-flop. Often, it's to fold out all other hands and sweep up the money in the pot. If you know you are going to get a bunch of calls with KQo even with a raise pre, then what is the point of raising pre?

Yes, if you flop a K or Q as top pair you probably have the best hand. But then you're only making money from a lower K/Q, and by charging draws. Maybe you'll get one street of value from middle pair. But then you're in a brutal spot if they flop bottom 2 vs your over, or a set vs your over. With so many people calling pre and an awkward SPR spot, KQ doesn't usually make a hand you want to play for stacks in a 6 way pot.

That's why you have to judge the situation at the table. If you aren't folding out a wide range pre, then raising pre with KQ deep doesn't make much sense. If you had 50-100BB behind that would be a different story. You can comfortably 3 bet and stack off flop with top pair. But KQo is the type of hand that can give you brutal spots deep, pot control at least can limit the damage.

I feel like we've exhausted the key points of contention on this hand.

Results?

Anti-climatic result.

Hero folds, Villain doesn't show.