1/3 @ B

6$ straddle
folds to
H ($400) in co w/ 8c8d (35 yo reg)
raise to 16
SB ($600) call (50 yo asian male, played solidly and quietly)
BB ($450) call (30 yo white male, plays to many hands and is indiff to position)
Straddle ($200) call (50 yo white male)

($60) Flop Js9s7c
SB Check
BB $20
St Fold
H raise to $85 (BB has donked several times with weak top pairs or middle pairish hands. The raise is targeting JT-QJ, 9T,78,98)

SB Call (This feels like a big draw ie QsTs, As7s, 7s8s, AsTs, As8s, KsQs, KsTs, or maybe 97s. I think 2 pr + ships or leads strong on a blank turn)

BB Call (Stubborn J or one of the above draws, but the over call was very quick which leads me to think JT-AT or 9T peeling a turn card)

($320) Turn 2c
SB C (quick)
BB C (quick)
H $160 (This is where my question for the community comes. Is this a good bet? Should I check back? Shove? Bet $107? $240?)

SB Call (Same range?)
BB Fold

($640) River Tc

SB C
H AI 140 (oops )
SB Call

You shouldn't show results in the OP.

Pre - If you're going to raise, with the straddle on it needs to be bigger. I would probably go to at least $25. Going too small leads you to a very multi-way pot, in which case you may as well have limped because you won't be able to take it down with a c-bet very much when you miss.

On flop, I don't like the raise. This flop strongly hits all your callers ranges. Understand you have a read on BB, but is he actually folding many of the hands you put him on or does he get stubborn with hands like Jx, pair plus gutshot or flush draw? I either fold flop or call for pot control.

I hate the turn bet. Once SB cold-calls your raise on the flop, he is very weighted to TPTK+ or very strong draws. The 2c changes nothing, so I check behind.

River obviously fine when you bink.

Generally, this feels like a hand that you were committed to winning. Nothing wrong with raising 88 pre, and just check folding when a bunch of overs flop after you've been called by 3 other people.

We're 130+bb deep and I have position. The smaller pf raise sizing gives me more maneuverability within stack depths to use in combination with my position. Which is what I tried to do.

How often does V have qq-aa here? How does that effect my line?

I bet 1/2 pot ott because it offers little implied (or in reality zero since I only had 140 back and would have folded to any river shove) and close direct by offering only 3:1 against a range which is at about a 3:1 dog.

After thinking about this afterward I think a bit larger turn bet, $200-250, would have been slightly better, or even a shove.

And. If SB is weighted toward TPTK+ and big draws isn't that more of an incentive to bet the turn big to get called by the draws and fold out AJ/KJ?

This propensity definitely depends on the likelihood of him holding better than TPTK.

I think you're underestimating the strength of V's cold call on the flop a good bit. I wouldn't be worrying too much about QQ-AA given the lack of a 3-bet pre flop (though obviously I should be given results), but AJ, J9, 97 and T8 are all in play. I'd also put TP+GS hands like JT and J8 in his range after he cold calls your raise. Maybe he back raises you with some of those on the flop, but maybe he strings you along, especially with TPTP, TP+ GS and 97, which are almost certainly behind if he re-raises flop and you call. All the draws you list have about 30% equity against your actual hand on the turn.

From V's perspective, the turn changes absolutely nothing. If he has a draw, your half pot bet is giving him odds to continue. If he has a made hand he's never folding to a half pot bet on a blank turn. You have two villains in the pot as well, which cuts your chances of a bluff working in half. I check back turn and hope to bink. If you're going to bluff, think it needs to be bigger but I wouldn't recommend it.

As for PF, this can be a spot we just disagree on. A hand like 88 will usually flop very well or just miss. So, I'm usually trying to get it head's up so I can take it down with a c-bet. If it goes very multi-way, I'm almost never trying to bluff to win it, so if I don't think I can get it head's up I'll just limp and set-mine. Not sure what raising to $16 in a straddled pot really accomplishes, but that's just me. I'm sure others have some luck with this move.

Raise more pre, like $20.

This is a very tough hand to play, and I give you props for trying to navigate your way through it versus a likely made hand and a drawing hand.

It really comes down to what you think SB's check/call range of your flop raise entails and whether you think he is capable of folding a hand like AJ. When you raise the flop you are basically committing yourself to shoving the turn, turning your hand into a bluff vs. Jx and a thin value shove vs. overcard/flush/straight draws.

If you are rolled for the game I like a turn shove. Good for your image and I think it carries enough FE vs. Jx to be +EV.

I hear what you are saying but I just don't see top 2+ checking that turn 3 way. Someone has a draw. Also i'm not sure J8 and JT are in SB's range. In my experience people don't usually over call oop with those types of hands. SB played pretty solid like.

I think I now like $210 as a turn bet. It only leaves $90 behind for a theoretical free roll, taxes the draws at a better rate and gets all JQ- to fold from the BB.

I'm repping the big hand otf on a draw heavy but seemingly non nutted board. I think I can credibly rep 77,99,jj,and qq+ which all would bet 1/2 pot + OTT.

As for PF we shall skin our cats differently

What is SB's over call otf and check ott range?
And what is BB's donk/call otf and check ott range?

You're not going to fold to a brick on the river for your last $90 so maximize your FE and shove the turn. Leaving a nominal amount of chips behind is just dumb.

I'd also raise preflop, but as soon as we go 4ways we're pretty much setmining.

Guy who plays too many hands indifferent to position donks small on this extremely drawy board. What are the chances of him folding to a raise? Zero? If he's capable of donking draws, I might call and see what happens on the turn. Otherwise, I'd probably just fold most of the time here.

If I wasn't already done with the hand, I certainly am when the solid guy takes a raise to the face. Decent chance we're in 3rd place drawing dead. What's our plan, barrel the turn, have the draw call, and then ship the rest in on the river as a bluff?

When we leave ourselves a lol 1/5th PSB left for the river, I'm pretty sure whatever plan we had wasn't a good one. I also ship at this point as we can get paid off by worse, especially thanks to the odds we're offering (he probably can't even fold TP at this point).

Gnotexactlysurewhattheplanwas?G

The plan was to barrel the bb off Jx by the turn. The SB's overcall/x turn screamed of combo draw, which im now ahead of ott but is likely to realize his equity. A barrel on the turn gives the SB obvious odds because he can realize most of his equity if he so desires but the BB is likely to fold out a large percentage of his value in the hand because it may be difficult for him to accurately gauge that value. So long as the barrel ott folds out Jx, which has to worry about SB's equity(~25%) as well as mine (5%), 60% of the time I make money(on a 1/2 pot turn bet). If this happens we either fold out our $140 on all river leads or check behind with plenty of showdown on river blanks.

That was the plan.

My dilemma has been the turn bet sizing. Now I want to shove turns.

Ok, at least I understand the plan now.

I agree with Johnny that if that is our plan then we're better off shoving the turn (where we have less than a PSB left).

I'm not thrilled with the plan overall, since getting people to fold TP in general is hard, especially if no scare cards come in, especially if he's doing a default "put you on AK", and especially if he has a pair + draw (which he could have on this board and he's unlikely to fold), especially not HU. I'm also not exactly sure what our image / history is with this guy, so that might be the key; it's perhaps a plan I should be thinking about utilizing more in my game with my image against certain opponents.

GcluelessNLnoobG

On the turn, I think the question is do we think he can fold AJ, KJ, QJ, JT or J8. Without better reads, my assumption here is no, and so I check behind. Problem is he already called a big raise on the flop, and nothing has changed when the 2c hits. If he was ahead on the flop, he's still ahead, and if he was behind he's still behind. His draws are still calling (they're getting the right price) as are 2p+. I also agree with the consensus that if you're betting the turn you may as well shove to maximize FE.

I do think that your pre-flop sizing makes it hard for you to project JJ+ here. Most people wouldn't open to just $16 with a premium pocket pair in a straddled pot. Maybe you would bet you're entire opening range at just $16, but I actually suspect you'd have gone bigger with a premium hand. It makes it very hard for you to have an overpair here, so you're really projecting just a set here.

Good post MIB and GG. The safe play is obviously just calling the flop donk. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've raised 3rd pair on the flop after a donk bet. I would need to have a good read on my opponents to make this flop raise, but like you said once we put our foot on the gas we have to follow through.

It's nice we have a gutter to fall back on (and possibly a set) for the times villain is too sticky with AJ. I can't think of too many hands a good villain would call with OOP here and check call the flop and check the turn. Probably just the AJs/KJs combos.

thanks for the feedback. my pf raise sizing is independent of holdings so jj+ def is in my actual range but i understand that through my opponents eyes they may discount my likeliness of holding jj+ due to my small open.

Just fold flop. FPS imo.

Also, raise pre to $20.

this is unnecessary, however i do think the flop raise has merit, as does a turn shove

I only like a flop raise here if I think I'm behind, for instance if I just have AK, and only on a dry board where it's likely they arent drawing since they will just call your raise anyway. In this circumstance we may very well be ahead right now, so I think calling flop donkbet is fine, especially with so many people in the hand. As played if you're going to play it this aggressively and you get such a massive brick like that turn, I really like the idea of shoving. Personally I would never do that because I'm too scared, but I think it's something I should introduce to my game, but only as a bluff. I dont really like turning 88 into a bluff. On river obviously getting it in any way possible.

javi-
what hands do you like for turning into a bluff in this spot?

I would fold rather than call flop. Calling is the worse option IMO. Anyone agree?

I don't mind calling if this guy gets pretty ABC on later streets, so we basically get to see what he does on the turn card for cheap.

But calling / evaluating with 3rd pair / no outs can get pretty damn expensive, especially if Villain goes into check / calldown mode with TP on later streets.

GwhichiswhyI'mcoolwithfoldingtheflopG

i think folding is probably best, but 88 is a pretty good hand to bluff with here, especially with the 7 being the nonspade

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I'm not sure I have any hands in my range here as a pure bluff. 4-ways to the flop with a board that really hits the range of the callers and someone already throwing in a bet is not the spot I want to bluff without outs. So my bluffs here would be Axs, combo draws, and maybe KQ (two overs and a gut shot).

The straddler folded so we are down to 3-way. I get you were probably speaking more "in general" however.

I wouldn't say we have no outs. We will improve to a set or a straight 25% of the time by the river. We either don't need the outs because we are ahead of a draw, or we do need the outs because we are behind Jx, two pair, etc.

But I think 6 outs is enough to make a merged raise here. We're not exactly sure what we are targeting but it just feels so right.