Back to basics with bet sizes and ranges: a survey and a discussion.

It's 1/3 and it's Friday night, 9-handed. You know the other eight players, and they are ALL loose-passive players with varying degrees of inebriation. They have a VPIP of about 45/5 each. They rarely fold to a 3-bet. Everyone has 100bb ($300). People find it hard to fold top pair here.

(1) You are under the gun with AA. What do you raise to?

(2) What is your raising range under the gun?

(3) You are in the hijack with TT and there are 3 limpers. What do you do?

(4) What is your raising range in the hijack with 3 limpers?

(5) How do you maximize your profit on this table and what should your VPIP/PFR approximate overall?

Note: I can win on NL25 Pokerstars zoom NLHE, but I can't win in 1/3 live. Just not this year.

Nl25 zoom is way harder to beat Imo than live 1-3

1) 6x usually
2) depends, wider than it should be and I vary my bet sizing alot, but any pair a10+, kq, sc's 45-qj, middle suited 1 gappers like 6-8 through qt.... If table is tough then I nit up a bit more, if table is soft the I'll women it up.
3) 9x
4) 88+ at+ kq.
5) stop worrying about stats, I make money by having the best hand and value betting the car%p out of the fish... Nothing complicated

Let's break it down a bit. With a 45/5 profile, 4 people are going to see every flop. About 1/2 of the hands are going to see the flop with no raises. A raise is going to be a range of AJs+, AQo, TT+. A 3bet is going to be almost exclusively QQ+ AK.

Therefore,

1. $25, which is what I'd raise my entire raising range with. I'll get 3 other players and the hand will just play itself. You want to get as much in the pot as possible while you hold the nuts. At this table, people are going to pay you.

2. I'd probably add ATs to the typical raising range. But don't pay attention to the old guy, I'm about the last person around that actually thinks position is important.

3. David Sklansky wrote years ago that playing JJ as a big hand against 2-3 other players was death. Since they aren't folding in this case, I'd limp along. Play TT as a small pair.

4. You want to raise when you have an edge on the field. If you demand to be ahead of all three limpers combined, you're limiting yourself to QQ+, AKs. If you are willing to accept being twice the odds of any one player (or 40/60 underdog to the field), TT+, AQ+, KQs is fine.

However, we can get a little finer than that. Let's say that there is going to be a $5 rake after you raise. If you raise to $20, you need to overcome the rake to keep your edge. To keep it simple, let's assume there will be a bet on the flop and everyone will fold to the bettor. That means you need at least a 27% favorite in the hand. That implies raising no more than 30% of the hands would be at least profitable.

That said, I'd like a bit more margin than that, having at least 5 more percentage points than breakeven to raise. So my range would be all broadways, with a smattering of Axs and Kxs hands.

5. You maximize your profit by value betting hard when you have a distinct edge, especially pf. I'd be nitty in EP and loose in LP. But there again I'm going on about position. Just feel free to ignore it.

1) $20. Given the dynamics you described we might even be able to go bigger but I'd start there.

2) Fairly tight. The game you're describing is going to get beat by you putting in money while you're ahead and value betting like crazy. ATsuited+, AJo+, KQsuited, 88+.

3) Raise to $30. I expect to get called by at least one player and maybe all 3, but we get to play in position against bad players.

4) I would limp a large part of my range here as a lot of the value will be in playing pots in position against players that can't fold. I'm raising 99+ AJ+ and limping suited connectors, suited aces, smaller pocket pairs, and off-suit broadways.

5) Recognize when your opponents aren't price sensitive and pump it up. You stated that 3-bets almost never get folded to so make sure all of your 3-bets are for value, not bluffs. Don't be afraid to overlimp in position with hands that play well multi-way (suited A, small pp, broadways, etc.).

A) I would typically limp AA here, although raising to $30+ (if I can expect action) is ok too. See (B).

B) Really depends on whether any pots at all are being raised. If literally no pots are being raised and I can't ever expect one, then I'll have to go ahead and raise myself. Typically 10% of stacks if I can expect action ($30+) and sizing up appropriately if I'm getting too many callers. I'd probably have a very tight raising range here of QQ+/AK. If any pots at all are being raised, with multiple callers, I'd typically lean to limp/reraising (and my limp/reraising range might be much wider if I feel the raiser is raisey).

C) Tough one. I think overlimping this early (2 people have position on us and half the table haven't even looked at their cards yet) is actually fine especially with this ~nonmonster hand that'll hate a huge amount of flops.

D) Probably a very tight QQ+/AK, where I'm raising a huge amount to setup stack commitment postflop if I flop TP. Obviously JJ/TT/AQs/etc. are going to be borderline hands, but I think playing them passively in this spot is fine (due to they are not going to play nearly as well multiway unless they flop a monster, in which case we can just limp to ~nutmine).

E) If very few pots are being raised, and these guys are payoff stations postflop, I'm probably playing looser than I currently am in my normal game (which is more raisey and less payoffy), in that I'm attempting to get into a pot from any position with Axs/anysuitedbroadway/anypair, and then loosening up even more in LP after limpers. My main strategy is to just get into a pot for cheap with these guys, hit a hand, and then get paid off.

ETA: Unlike others, at tables like these I believe it is perfectly ok to pass on our small preflop edge (seriously, stove KQs or AJo or whatever against 5 other hands that see the flop, it's not the monster you think it is) and just see a flop for cheap with these hands and *then* build up the hand postflop when we want to (especially since these guys will allow us to do that). If all our raises are getting things HU, then much more advantage in raising these weaker strong hands (isolating in position, fine); but going very multiway (we're never isolating anyone at this table, right?), that slight preflop advantage is really diminished. But a lot of people disagree with this viewpoint, so whatever.

GcluelessNLnoobG

^

gg, as someone whose strategy is basically just nut peddling, why are you so scared to have the pot be bigger than $10 pf with a top 5-10% hand when villains clearly don't?

1/2 My open size is the open size, I just raise what the table has been raising. I do this with my entire utg range, which will change based on table dynamics. I will pay attention to who is on the button and who is in the blinds before developing my range for this particular hand.

3. You shouldn't be always limping, you shouldn't always be raising. Again, pay attention to who has limped and who is behind you. Try to range the opponents who have already put money into the pot and calculate that against the likelihood of the opponents behind you to also put money into the pot. Generally, at these kind of tables my skill edge is massive so I'm raising on a like 90/10 split. The higher the skill level of my villains, the more I balance stuff out.

So, the important thing to notice is that not every hand in every position is equal. Knowing who is yet to act is super important. Knowing their defending tendencies and trying to range them is important when deciding to open vs limp vs fold and the sizing you should have.

#3 I think is where I'm losing a bunch of money, and I really need to re-evaluate how to play PP in LLSNL. I pretty much auto raise these without thinking, but it's extremely difficult to get to showdown with these hands if it's not HU post. I'd almost rather bump it with 87s than mid PPs.

Q: Do you think this very wide raising range is appropriate for a noobish type player (which I get the feeling OP is, and given that this is still a "beginner" type forum)?

My guess is that pots are going to go extremely multiway to most raises. If this is the case, noobish players will get themselves absolutely destroyed playing a wide range like this, as this simply don't have the tools to navigate the multiway bloated pots well enough. Heck, I wouldn't even be able to (I actually feel our preflop raises handcuff our postflop decisions due to immediate stack commitment decisions, but that's another story).

At the very least, I would caution that your wide raising range should be meant for experts only. Suggesting noobs/beginners should use this range is extremely dangerous; they will slaughter themselves using this range.

GimoG

come on gg

I know, he's getting a poll, and I totally agree; feel free to state your ranges, nothing wrong with that.

But you're doing a disservice if you're blindly stating them in a way that suggests that OP / lesser experienced players should also play this way without appropriate caveats.

GcluelesscaveatsnoobG

GG, this is the second thread I see where you're advocating limping monster pairs UTG. I know you've seen many hands @llsnl. Do you have any figures on how your limping strategy is paying off?

GG you really get action raising 10x UTG?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wish I did. Being live, I just haven't been able to tabulate any stats whatsoever on it, nor been able to compare it to the alternative (open raising) to see which is more EV. And of course, as always, it is always table / situation dependent. For me, it really comes down to the PNLHE idea of setting up good situations for ourselves, an idea that I really agree with, but of course even this idea revolves around how we consider ourselves as a postflop player. I've decided I don't have nearly as big as advantage postflop on the field as I'd like to think; most people (lol, *all* people?) think otherwise, so that will affect their preflop thinking regarding this.

The only stat I have is $22.10/hr over 3464 hours, which might also be fairly meaningless.

GcluelessEVnoobG

Yup. Don't be jelly.

Of course, it's always table dependent, and even hand-to-hand different. Maybe one hand no one was dealt 97s or K3s, so obviously I'm not going to get much action. But other times 4 players are dealt those hands and we'll go 5ways.

My table usually (but not always) plays pretty aggressive, and very loose. I've recently decided that if literally the only thing I ever did was limp/reraise and take down $60 pots preflop uncontested (and rake/BBJdrop free!), I would likely destroy this game.

Gdon'tbejellyG