This guy is loose. Other than the rare occasion he has a set (only 7 combos), what hands does he have that could withstand a large raise and turn barrel from a tight player?

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Obviously TT calls a raise if he donks with it, I'm not sure what games you've been playing but people folding over pairs to a raise? It's certainly less than 100% of the time like you're trying to say. People itt are also forgetting that he can 3bet otf and yeah we have fine equity against basically everything but as I've already said that is not what we want for this hand ip.

To anyone who feels like posting **** like this, just wanted to let you know that you're the cancer of this forum. People posting their opinions (correct or incorrect) is how this place works.

This is a really interesting post and obviously there's a divergence of views on the optimal way to play the flop in particular. It's great we're all so passionate about poker!

FWIW, here is a great example of how to objectively explain the reasoning for why you think one play might be better than the other:

There's nothing in the above that is subjective or overly categoric (e.g. obviously they do this). And you'll find nothing sarcastic which dismisses the views of other posters in a disrespectful manner.

It's just good old-fashioned robust reasoning.

You wouldnt believe the number of times Im in this exact spot and I raise the flop only to have villain fold a better hand than mine face up. I sometimes raise the flop with nothing at all or maybe just overcards. When you raise preflop and then raise a flop lead it looks like a big overpair and they expect a huge turn bet to be coming.

They mostly fold the flop, but the ones that call rarely fold the turn.

The biggest mistake in this hand would be to call villain down all 3 streets unimproved. Im shocked that a couple people wanted to do that.

Do you think it's a coincidence that some of the strongest posters on this forum think this is call spot? I don't.

Im a pretty strong player also. I do agree with those guys most of the time but not this time. I was right this time, but obviously they are also right sometimes when we disagree.

So much debate on what to do vs someone that flats tens bb vs btn and donks 9 high flop. Lol

Raising and calling are both fine. Poker is not binary. It is a spectrum. Raising is green and calling is a darker green.

The reasons for calling have already been given. Im not sure the reasons for raising have been given but its not to make villain fold a better hand.

You think Im lying when I say I raise a flop like this and have people fold better 9s or TT face up?

If you are playing in games where you can just call down all 3 streets and your hand is good, your win rate should be 15BBs/hr. Who leads out and bets all 3 streets into the raiser with something like 77? Nobody in my games thats for sure.

No. That happens to me too. But thats not exactly what we are trying to accomplish when we merge.

When you raise here its bc range vs range we have an equity advantage and we are pushing said advantage with aggression. This forces oop player to realize less equity than ip player.

Again, thinking in a spectrum. We dont raise to fold exactly TT. That is binary thinking (yes no, black white, better hand worse hand).

We are raising for value vs a range. Some of which is ahead. Some of which is behind. Some of which has high equity. Some of which has low equity.

When you merge sometimes people fold technically stronger value hands but continue with technically bad draws (say villain folds K9 here to a flop raise, but continues with 56 for example).

But thats just a few fragments in the spectrum of the near infinite game-tree. You dont look back and say "yep i raised to fold out exactly TT, nice work me!"

We would be raising for value/protection vs a range that is draw heavy/tp heavy (people rarely lead sets). We are ahead of some of the likely TP (89/9T) and since we block tp, we can assume he is more draw heavy overall, even if we do block some heart combos.

Yeah, more with Ava that it's probably pretty close on the flop, although I'm still in the flat camp for most of the reasons already given. Overall, I'm more for raising the flop if there are a lot of currently better hands that we can fold out; with us already having TP, that limits those range of hands quite a lot plus makes them less likely to fold since they are TP+
(i.e. raising with bottom pair + flush draw is much better in this regards as getting better hands like 2nd pair to fold is a coup and much easier to accomplish).

My guess is the more worthwhile discussion is the river decision (where it's possible I'm missing more value here by just flatting).

GwishywashyG

Mike, we’re not playing against TT we’re playing versus a range. For whatever reason you never range people and only attempt to put them on specific hands. Saying this guy “probably has 9x or TT” is a ridiculous statement. The read is this George Clooney look-a-like is clicking buttons and trying to flirt with some girl he thinks he’s gonna get a handjob from later due to his exquisite hair and poker prowess.

For starters, his donking range is incredibly wide and all a raise serves to accomplish is fold out his air. He’s never folding a better hand, certainly not TT or JJ. He doesn’t even know who Petrucci is he’s got pussy on his mind. So raising flop and x back turn is pointless and removes an entire subset of hands that villain will bet into you with on the turn.

You are basically saying you don’t raise your sets because you have so much FE that you can’t get called by worse. If you are calling with your sets and raising with J9 you are doing it wrong.

I am raising this flop because I'm pretty much at least flipping against his whole range, he's probably shutting down on any turn that improves me and while he might not fold to flop raise he is folding to a double barrel unimproved. I'm not saying I'm definitely right but that is my opinion.

Also when I do get a better hand to fold it's a coup.

You are correct that I don't believe it. Lacking a weak-tight read, Villains don't flat TT pre, donk 80% pot with an overpair, and fold to a raise in my world. They are ahead of AK and that's what matters. They may b/f 88 to "see where they are at", but TT ain't goin anywhere.

I can actually see hands like TT folding to a flop raise as Mike says. The problem is that the amount of currently better hands we're getting to fold is such a narrow range to target (considering bigger pocket pairs may 3bet preflop). I mean, we're literally targetting just TT in this case and perhaps a preflop flatting JJ (although as the pocket pair gets bigger the less likely it is too fold). Heck, even a better 9x may consider continuing more than TT/JJ due to more outs + backdoors.

GcluelessrangenoobG

Agree with you that it's almost a null range. Would expect this description to typically 3bet TT BB vs Button.

Call is a good idea here. U want to raise when u want to get value or get better hands to fold or gets high equity hands to fold. Obviously, Villain is not folding set here. Villain also is not likely to have a big pair(since he only called preflop). You may actually have best hand. You also have flush draw. So by raising you will force Villain to fold mostly hands that you beat ( he may fold A high flush draw but not likely based on your description).
Call the flop and see what develops on turn. By calling you also make it more difficult for Villain to read you. This will make it difficult for him to donk bet you.


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Just saw this rant. +1. There is rarely, if ever, ONE correct way to play a spot. I read hands here mostly because I am too passive most of the time and need to be more aggro and I appreciate the comments/arguments for aggression because it forces me out of my comfort zone and makes me a better player overall. I would like to think that when I (and others) recommend a more passive line, it would prompt the SLAG's to do the same, but perhaps it doesn't. That is fine...I can still glean from them.

Thread savers. Thank you.

I do firmly stand pat that the flop is too wide both ways to do much besides call. For those electing to raise flop, you will have to find a way to clear the hurdle that getting V to fold TT is actually costing you money even if you win the pot immediately. You want him bet bet betting one of his strongest hands bc he is absolutely f****d doing so. It’s such a routine fish stomping spot and yet we have guys un-f**king V by charging up his foldong freqs. Making the other player “fold the best hand” is not what wins the most money. It never is.

We are going to have to agree to disagree I guess. Im basing everything Im saying on actual experience from hands like this one. Not from some theory perspective. If you guys are doing the same thing then we are playing in different universes.

In my universe, this guy is not betting anything much worse than our hand again on the turn anyway so making him fold a weaker hand doesnt help me much. Making him fold a better hand helps a ton.

I agree with MikeStarr, Katman, Gillingham, Javanewt, twitheroo, monikrazy, Nutjob72 i.e. my preferred play is to raise the flop donkbet against this particular villain.

I have no problem with calling in this spot sometimes and calling would in fact be my preferred play with deeper stacks or against tighter villains who only have pocket pairs in their range unlike this villain who I see as having plenty of 9x, flush or straight draws and overcards in his range.

I strongly disagree with those arguing emphatically that flat-calling is obviously the optimal play.

Max respect to Petrucci for an awesome insightful post and to all those who kept the debate constructive, provided clear and objective reasoning for their views and didn't resort to sarcasm or dismissive remarks to advocate their opinion.

Thanks alot! Even though i am not entirely sure wich post youre referring too

Look, i described villain with the following leaks:

1) Is a proven buttonclicker,having a huge ego and busy noticing if his hair looks perfect, and likes to bet himself to put money into the pot

2) One of his main leaks is that he plays way to many hands in all sort of ways



Still, you manage to twist this in your head into "this guy is not betting anything much worse again on the turn". Its like you just flat out ignore the information you get in the posts, and just automaticly interpret the experience you have from your own main game back home.

Our goal is not to win the most amount of pots: its about to win the most amount of money. Just one scenario alone in this hand is making me jizz in my pants and think about +EV: a rec villain with a big ego playing too wide of a range and betting too many hands, is donking into me OOP when i flopped huge equity. This is a villain who is capable of betting like middle pair, and buttonclick bet if a J or 9 comes, losing alot more money than he needs to. Or he can fire with an open ender, and then if i bink my flush he can easily try an represent that hand and lose alot more than he needs to= huge moneymakers for me and my big equity in this hand.

Like somebody else said (well put), its not like that equity shrinks up or magically dissapear if i just call, neither does it shrinks up when i play that huge equity out against his weaker donk betting range (infact were doing even better then)- instead of forcing out alot of the weaker hands or potenial bluffs by raising.

I have tried but i really cant understand why i should wish for this villain to fold his weak donkbettingrange on the flop by fastplay my hand. Yes, i know he had 1010 this very hand- but as others have pointed out, its of course important to keep in mind were playing against a whole range, and not get resultoriented/executing bias confirmation.

I also tried without success to grasp why this described villain is a good villain to choose to fastplay this hand against. I would much rather fastplay this hand against an OMC or weak-tight local reg or something, that will never give me more money on later streets by buttonclicking and try to represent "scarecards". Those type of villains that is doing the one and done donklead, i am raising this flop every day of the week. Against those kind of standard weak/tight regs or OMC that never bets without having close to the nuddles, i love a fastplay line to just maximize my fold equity through the roof.