Why are we 3 betting AQs vs an unknown EP raise? If it was BTN vs CO sure but the raise came from EP. Flat AQs and 3 bet A5s if we're gonna 3 bet bluff at all vs an unknown is a better play imo.

Flop check is fine. Turn is weird. You're a little too deep to shove since not much worse calls. But we can't just call a 1/4 pot bet on this turn. Pretty confident we have the best hand. AK probably bets a little bigger to protect. Looks like JJ-KK trying to blocker bet. I think a min raise and then shoving most rivers is fine. We don't have to worry about flush draws getting there if only UTG+2 continues which is what we want since his range is pretty face up.

EDIT: Just realized you had $270 to start the hand and pot was $180 on the flop. So you have $225 behind and there's almost exactly that after his turn bet. Yeah shove. Probably pretty obvious and most non-morons aren't gonna pay you off with KK but given the weird bet sizes and the fact that this pot is four way, you don't have a choice.

Readless, so based on experience, the $40 into $180 on a drawy board looks extremely weak multi-way. We have a ~PSB left, so I'd gii with TP2K, charging max for draws, denying equity.

Why? The most likely hand we get called by is a flush draw or OESD. SB is shortish and could call with anything. Whether he calls or folds, there is going to put tons of pressure on V1 who has mostly small PP’s and V2 who has mostly big cards.

Hero calling hands like 66 here is suicidal when we are protected by 24 overpairs, 6 sets and a handful of overcard + flush draws. Shipping the flop with AQ here is exploiting villain’s perception of our range and creates a situation where we can fold better (small pairs/AK) and get called by worse (draws).

Given the SPR is 1.3x and we only started with 90 BB’s this is a pretty easy ship given our limited downside.

UTG+2 closed the action pre, so he could have any of the 3 possible sets, although I think the avg LLSNL player bets more due to the wet flop. Also, had to of been confident that you were going to bet the flop, which you didn't. Now, he's either mad at himself & saying "I lost value otf, I'm going to gamble," and made his bet small to get multiple callers [unlikely], or he doesn't have a set, which is most likely the case, i.e., a drawing hand.

He could also have T9s, however, I find it more common that a small bet in LP on a wet flop is a drawing hand, which would make sense since he called $15, with something like 87s, QJs etc & then another $30 since he was closing preflop action and then checked the flop. Everyone has demonstrated weakness, he has a good draw & if everyone doesn't fold, he has equity.

I find the only benefit to flatting ott is that you think your hand is not the best right now. That would mean that someone is in front of you with A9s, A5s, ATs, and..... is checking again?

Then there's the PAWM hand of a veteran poster I remember; he flopped a set of Qs & his V was OOP with a flopped set of Ks & Hero took himself to value town, and you only have top pair....but a good kicker.

Still, I raise. I'm sorry, but I can't be passive here, despite not having any reads. You are only blocking 1 out to a drawing hand: the Q & you don't have any s. RAISE<<<CALL IMHO, however, I can bet/fold. Not always, but almost always.

EDIT: Forgot how shallow the stacks are.....GII OTT

Def jam turn. Villain can correctly call you with all combo flush/straight draws like AJd, QKd, JQd, KJd, 78d and I could def see this small bet size being weighted towards those hands more than sets or AK that I think bet bigger for protection.

I also think a jam may push out AQ which you’re chopping with which is a big win.. There’s also only 1 combo left of ATs, A9s and A5s so not too scared of those. Sure, it sucks when you get snapped off by AK but only 8 combos of AK against 6 combos of AQ, 6 combos of AJ and all those combo draws I mentioned. But as I said, I think this $40 bet increases the amount of his range that is draws doing this than value hands.

Interesting discussion on call/raise.
I elected to call here.
Turn A ($180)
SB, UTG checks, UTG+2 leads $40
Hero calls $40, SB crai $120, UTG+2 snap calls $80.
Pot is $460 with Hero to act. Hero?

Here's the hand history from start to present.

I would certainly fold at this point. Even though the turn bet was quite small, it's still a turn bet into multiple opponents, which saw a call, and now some guy is check/raising; this is typically super strong against multiple opponents. We have no draw and even some of our Q outs might complete better hands. Yeah, it's weird that SB saw the flop check thru and still checked the turn, but there's an ok chance he figured the A hit someone and that it was unlikely to check thru again.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Unless it's blatantly obvious that my V is a bad player, I assume he/she is a very competent player until proven otherwise. So, I ask myself: "Self, would a very competent player iso-raise pre from the seat he's in with a wide enough range for me to 3!?"

Then there's meta-game issues: if I flat here [AQs does play well with others] & it goes to showdown, will he remember what I flatted with, increasing the value [in his mind] of my holding when I 3! him pre in the future, etc., etc.?

Since he has no read on you [unless he's better than you & can size up his Vs quicker than you can] how is he going to take your 3!? Is it a value 3! or a squeeze 3!? How does he respond to those situations? Well, you don't have phruckin' clue, now do you...

well put: OP, we don't have a clue where we stand here. We're in a bloated pot, multihanded with a medium strength hand and much less than a pot sized bet remaining. A huge part of winning poker is putting yourself in good (or avoiding bad) situations.

The reason you're in this bad spot is your 3bet preflop. This was a mistake unless you have specific reads/knowledge on original raiser. This whole hand plays out different without your 3bet. You would have same number of villains but actions/bet sizing would give you way more info than the way this played out for you and your decisions would be easier/more accurate. As played, fold now.

You haven't explained anything at all. I don't mind folding A5s to a 4-bet. But I'd hate to waste AQs and would definitely just call pre. If anyone doesn't want to get it in on the turn, that just one more reason to just call pre.

On the flop we have 225 behind and a pot of 180. Unless something odd happens, like a monotone flop with many people showing interest, I'm never folding top-pair in such a situation.

Easy turn get it in.

3! Pre is fine although a flat would've been better. The reason to 3-bet pre is to get heads-up. Seeing as you got three callers, perhaps your image isn't that clean. Nevertheless, once it's checked to you with initiative and position, you cannot check back and turn your hand face up. You must continue telling the JJ+ story, and so a bet is in order. The stack sizes make it very difficult to size right. Ideally you'd need 120 on the flop and about 250 on the turn to double barrel. You don't have that much behind. So you might as well shove. Not loving the sizing, but if you're going to 3-bet AQs, then you might as well play some poker while you are uncapped.

wow, UTG+2 would have to be 90 year old man for me to fold preflop here. even if UTG+2 has AK because you have button there will be opportunities to outplay postflop imo. very often though you have two live cards+FD though. way too nitty imo

and yeah on the turn SB CR + UTG+2 call is super strong, time to fold now

We don't 3-bet light in these games for good reason. We don't 3-bet A5s because we get called too often (3 times in this hand!) with a hand that doesn't play very well post. Declining to bluff is only half of the adjustment. The other half is to start 3-betting the top of our calling range for value.

I 100% agree with this ^^. AQs is a strong enough hand to 3-bet for value.

Against an unknown EP raiser?

Yes. If we get 4-bet, we can fold with confidence. If not, we are armed with position and initiative, and EPs range is capped while we are uncapped.

What would be your plan on how to go about outplaying your V post-flop, should it go HU, when you don't have a clue how he plays?

How much value does position & initiative lose when we don't know anything about our V[s]. I would venture to guess a decent amount.

We can usually fold with confidence. We can fold a healthy chunk of the time with confidence. However, what if it folds back to him & it turns out he prefers to !4 pre with JJ HU? Is that a rare enough occasion where we should not consider the fact that in those instances, we would be throwing away our equity?

I love the strength of our hand OTB; I love having the initiative in position; I love having the superior skill set vs my V; I don't love playing with a blindfold on when it comes to my lack of knowledge of my V, so I prefer to play AQs for its value multi-way.

One final thought: I have found that when the new guy at the table gets all aggro OTB, the testosterone gets to flowing.

OK well a lot of the time unknowns raise like 88+, AQ+ from EP, especially if they fork their range into raising and limping ranges. Even looser villains will not raise and certainly will not call with too many worse hands than AQ. So how much value are we getting vs that range? Is it still for value or are we just raising to see where we're at at this point?

I mostly play 2|5, where I am pretty sure the player pool is open/calling a range that AQs is happy to play against in position. I could be wrong to do this at 1|3, but I don't know that game so I'm not sure.

It is not only the raiser, but the other callers. In this hand we got two cold-callers, which is rare but shouldn't be shocking. We need to 3-bet hands that have good equity when called.

AK fits the bill. Not AQs. From my experience, 1/3 players and also to an extent the more passive 2/5 players fork their range into limping and raising ranges. The raising ranges from EP are gonna be so tight that AQs isn't even a favourite vs the raising range, never mind the continue vs 3 bet range. I honestly probably flat AK vs some players in that spot.

Well it depends on individual play styles, and so there is really no right or wrong way to go about it. Personally, I play almost 5-6 hours a day after my regular job, 4 days a week. I see a lot of 93o, 82o type hands, that when I get premiums I want to build a big pot. AQs is definitely a premium. In my opinion, AQs is a strong hand heads up and loses value multi-way. So whenever I get 99+/QJs+/AJo+, I want to iso and get heads up. Against an unknown, 3-betting gives you more information about their play style (will they four-bet? will they fold? will the flat and fold to pressure on the flop? will they flat and call one bet?) than calling does, and I prefer to 1) proactively gain information about their play style, 2) get heads-up with a big ace, so I can outplay them post-flop, and 3) build my image as a bully at the table. When the testosterone gets flowing, a) the pots get big, and b) I get comfortable while my opponents get pushed out of their comfort zone. I build big pots, and yes I do lose some big pots, but these are few and far between. YMMV.

It is astonishing how many unknowns and even regs go into fit or fold mode with 88-JJ, AK when they get 3-bet pre-flop. Applying pressure on the flop often results in a fold, and when you flop TPTK+ you make a lot of money.

Fair enough. Raising would be the prudent play if you have blinds that call $15 cold with garbage, especially if the SB is the loosest of the 2 & his call will entice BB to tag along. I was assuming [since I know notta' about them] that they were decent players.

If we assume UTG+2 raised with 77+ ATs+ AQo+ 87s+ any 2 suited broadway cards [9.35%], you have a coin-flip situation with you having 50.3% equity.

If the limper calls with 31.5% range [after you flat] you have ~37% equity; an overlay.

The primary reason I chose flatting: I don't know any of the Vs.

So you are willing to invest money to find this out, rather find out the easy way. Fair enough. I can value behind it, but I can also see some blow-back.If he !4 pre & you fold, he is going to wonder what you !3 with. If he got you to fold when he had QQ that time, maybe he'll try JJ or TT the next time.

A lot of LLSNL players are bad & they will seize on the fact that you flatted pre. Some will tend to be more aggro even when the flop doesn't pair their AK, so when it comes Q95r, UTG checks, he might very well fire to try & take it down with his 2 overs. Then again, maybe he's the kind of guy who will check. We don't know. That is my problem with the situation. We just don't know.

You're right, however, do these people fit in the category of raising to $15 in EP with 88/99, even TT?

Here's a hand that went down Sunday morning: 5 limpers for $2 & the NIT in the BB checks. There is a minor bet otf [NOT by the NIT] and a few people call & there's just under $30 after the rake.
Turn gets checked around.
River: QJ74T
The NIT checks & the Young Buck ships it for $93. The Fun Lag thinks about it for 20 seconds & flats.
Now the NIT goes into his routine. It's subtle, but I've played a ton of hours against him. I know he has AK. After rubbing his beard, studying the board, looking at his 2 Vs, he asks how much it is. He then spends 15 seconds cutting out $205 & pushes it forward.
The Fun LAG can't find a fold & the NIT locks up a nice stack of chips that nobody will ever see again.

Well yeah, there are several hand specific examples and counter-examples. And yes, I do flat AQs a certain percentage of the time (to be balanced).

Two specific counter-examples:
I flat a $15 raise with AQo, inducing three callers behind including Q5o in the SB who closes action. Board runs out Q53Q8 and I lose a huge pot.

I flat a $15 raise with AQo allowing 77 to come in behind me. Board runs out AQ7T3 and I lose another huge pot against AT and 77.

So there are merits to either and depends on our opponents more or less. I'm willing to go heads up against an unknown and take almost all coin flips.