Late-night 1/3, 3-4 fishes at table

V ($1000): Competent LAG reg, wide raising range, calls with 67o in BB vs fish, etc.

Hero ($700): Tight image, doesn't get involved with V much at all.


V raises to $15 in MP, folds to Hero OTB who looks down at AQo

What are Hero's options? Are we ever 3-betting this deep? Flat-call? Fold and move to next hand to get better spots vs fish?

Also, how about if we had AA-TT type hands here?

With our image and against a LAG who is probably opening wider than most, I'd be cool with a 3bet (folding to a 4bet) and looking to take things down with a smallish cbet postflop.

However, I will say that at a table full of fish a competent player really shouldn't be getting too out-of-line preflop. Plus we're so deep that he might just call anyways and try to make life difficult for us postflop. And on top of that, we do see him as competent. I don't think there is anything wrong with folding here and just concentrating on where our real money is going to come from (and it probably ain't him).

GcluelessNLnoobG

That's what I thought. I mean, yeah his PFR range is wider than "TAG" but given stack sizes, he's usually never folding to my 3bet pre, and probably never calling with worse aces either.

No point in 3-betting then. That move should be used against TAG's. On the other hand, you have position and should be well ahead of his raising range. (He is still raising at least somewhat wide at this table isn't he?) Folding would be a crime.

Flat behind and be prepared to call him down to the river if you hit the flop reasonably well. LAG should be firing multiple barrels OOP against tight hero with a wide range of hands. No need to give him any information at any point in hand by raising.

just because he never folds to a 3bet for me just means I need to fire a couple more bets (and win extra money).

Flatting is the worst option and I think we can do better than folding. 3betting will put us in control and force him to have a hand instead of us forcing ourselves to hit the flop (or bluff) in order to continue, which we will do only once in a million (the odds are against us to gin a flop)

Being deep is fine as long as we don't over play our hand. Nothing wrong with 3betting, cbetting and narrowing his hand on the turn then deciding if it's worth it or not to continue.

If he always calls your 3bets does he play fit or fold or does he try to bluff the flop or does he play straight fowrard post? if so I am 3betting

Usually 3bet, sometimes call. Never fold.

How can he never fold but never call worse aces? How about worse Queens?

Against said villains i call more than 3bet because AQ even AK can put us on a very tough spot on the flop where we need to barrel one or two streets 60% of the time with air.

We have position, nice leverage possibilities post flop due to stack sizes, and a V who won't fold to our 3 bet often. This is a great spot to 3 bet. Since we're deep maybe bump up the sizing a bit to say $65 or so.

When Villain calls, we'll just need to play good post flop poker. Again, we'll be in position, and even laggy Villains tend to straighten up post-flop in 3-bet pots. A total maniac, maybe not, but a competent player, I'd say they'll play straightforwardly post in this spot most of the time when 3 bet.

Also, just to throw it out there - if this Villain routinely calls 3 bets out of position, I'd take him down a notch or two on the competency scale.

PB2, what are we doing here if the villain 4 bets ?

the reason I ask is if we're folding to a 4 bet why not just flat

just your average white boy

If you are deep and suspect you'll be going against another deep stack, never call a raise with hands that cannot flop big or nuts. AQo cannot flop big, so why help building a big pot?

At your stack I would only play even against a raise with: p_pair, s_connectors and suited Aces. I will dump preflop two cards that flops TPTK because with TPTK I don't have hand for a big stack confrontation.

Fold. Hero is near the bottom of 3 betting for value range. With a tight image we have to assume villain isn't 4 bet bluffing or 4 betting light. If hero starts getting 4 bet a lot then hero will have to consider what to do, but the first time is an easy fold.

I don't think hero needs to 3 bet this all the time, but if Hero's 3 betting range is just AK/QQ+ it's too obvious. Hero needs to 3 bet wider some of the time, and in situations like this hand where it looks likely to go heads up hero also needs to flat some value hands.

Folding. How often in general are 4bets a bluff? Not very often.
If we know he will 4bet bluff I would still fold and wait till I have a hand like 1010 for example and if we were 100bb i would be 3bet/shoving those types of hands to him.

Flatting to play fit or fold is also a losing proposition in itself.

Folding may be lower variance but if you're avoiding marginal +ev spots, you're not maximizing your winrate. Pre flop I would flat call if blinds are tight. We have position, a strong hand that's likely best, and we should be competent. If you can't play AQo on the button heads up, then u have a lot to work on.

I also like 3betting, mainly to isolate. No need to 3bet to $65 esp if it pushes outs worse hands. 3bet to ~$35 and this should get it heads up. This is assuming he plays straightforward fit or fold post. If he's bluffy post, then either flat pre and check back safe flops (whether u hit or not) to induce bluffs (meaning u sometimes have to call down with ace hi).

+1

This is going to need some clarification. The only way these two statements work together is if villain is never opening worse aces, which seems unlikely given our read.

From what it sounds like, villain will fold hands like AJo-A2o to 3bets figuring he's dominated but villain will also call 3bets with hands likes 86o, T8o because he thinks he has two live cards. Makes sense but wording is confusing

FWIW, I actually thought we were out of the blinds (where I think folding is fine). On the Button, yeah, not folding. I probably lean towards 3betting.

GneedsneweyesG

I'm confused, what's he doing with worse aces if he's never folding to a 3b but also not calling with worse aces? Is he not opening them in the first place? Is he 4b'ing them?

Folding this on the button against someone with a wide PFR range is a crime. Assuming he has worse aces in his PFR range (which he almost certainly has to if he has a wide PFR range), the options are between calling and 3b'ing for value. I would generally assume that we can 3b for value, especially against someone who has enough hubris in their postflop game to call 76o out of the blinds against a fish. We can comfortably fold to a 4b because no one 4b bluffs at these games.

Postflop, if we hit an A/Q, this is actually a situation where we're likely to get into some pot control turn spots, as villain probably won't let himself get in TOO much trouble with KQ/AJ if he is indeed competent, and protection won't be as relevant because he probably isn't an out-chaser. So to answer your other thread, this is one of those (rare for these games) spots where b / x / b can be very good for value.

When you're IP, you get to control the size of the pot, so the stack depth only comes in play when you want it to come in play. If you don't want to get in a big stack confrontation with TPTK, then don't raise Q-high flops.

So long as you yourself don't raise any street postflop, you are really only at risk of facing, at most, 4 bets postflop. And since even that would involve villain x/r'ing at some point in the hand with a viable range (very rare that players at these stakes are able to form a balanced range with this play as the aggressor), I would really say we're effectively at risk of playing for 3 bets, which is right around 100bbs.

Now, if you absolutely bingo the board, then *you* can force *villain* into a decision for 233bbs much more easily (just raise a street somewhere and don't let any streets check through), so the stack depth should only come into play when it's in your advantage to.

This is essentially the 101 of the increasing advantage of position as stacks get deeper.