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1/3 AKs flops top top in 3! Pot

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05-27-2019 , 08:36 PM

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,312

Hi all,

Maybe this is a silly post but I wanted feedback anyway.

1/3. Hero has been opening a lot since he sat down 30 minutes ago. Just a good run of cards. V is tight middle aged BG with a lot of table talk. To V, hero should have tight image.

We are 7-handed. Hero raises $12 UTG with AKdd and UTG+1 flats. V/SB 3! $60. This is his first 3! since I sat down. We are $300 effective. Hero flats, UTG+1 jams for $5 more and we both call.

Flop ($200): K-8-5cch. SB open jams $240. Standard fold or call? Would you have done anything differently pre?

Thanks,
DT

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05-27-2019 , 09:58 PM

Gorgalosk

grinder

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 450

How often does a V like this 3! with less than KK? What do you believe V’s 3! Range is? If I was hero in this hand I’m mucking pre. Llsnl players 3! Ranges are just so unbalanced it’s super easy to exploit them by folding in spots like this.

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05-27-2019 , 10:12 PM

WereBeer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,700

I either jam pre or fold and given villain description I rather fold.

AP flop is a snap call. 6 combos of QQ, 3 of AA, 1 of KK and 6 AK out there. If his range is tighter than that, fold pre. In fact, you can fold pre vs. that range anyway...point is you shouldn't be here unless you think he's wide enough that you now have to call on this board.

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05-27-2019 , 10:30 PM

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,580

I think preflop can go either way - I think going to like $120 as an exploit and folding to a jam is good. Population plays straight forward in these spots so you will almost always be up against AA/KK vs a jam.

We also get other AK to fold which is 9 combos. Sometimes QQ will fold as well and JJ/TT will definitely fold.

As played - calling seems fine. Villain will have 3 combos of AA/1 combo of KK and 6 combos of AK so its more likely you will run into the same hand.

Sorry if you ran into AA - but making this 7 handed makes it less likely vs a typical 10 handed game.

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05-27-2019 , 10:34 PM

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,580

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorgalosk

I can see if we were OOP and it was offsuit but being IP and it being suited. Folding is too weak. plus it is only 7 handed and not 10

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05-27-2019 , 10:38 PM

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,580

I was playing 1-2 the other day and ran my AK into AA twice - both times I got away because i folded to the 4bet and they showed. Point is - if population 4bets at 1-2 it is almost always AA - but by being the 4bettor here we get the best of both both worlds:

1) We don't get stacked by AA/KK on A/K high boards because Villain will 5bet shove and we can fold preflop
2) We put maximum pressure on TT-QQ and sometimes they even fold which is a huge win
3) We put maximum pressure on 9 combos of AK as most opponents will fold this hand vs a 4bet.

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05-27-2019 , 10:49 PM

AngryDingo

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 346

Snap

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05-27-2019 , 11:24 PM

kimoser22

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 3,822

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk

Grunch,

150/ call it off pre- (if you are deep with UTG+1 and V is 300) just jam if you are the 300 stack. As played snap.

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05-27-2019 , 11:26 PM

kimoser22

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 3,822

Quote:

Originally Posted by WereBeer

I'd agree if he has stronger reads but he's only been at the table with v for less than 30 min

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05-28-2019 , 12:10 AM

#10

WereBeer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,700

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimoser22

I'd agree if he has stronger reads but he's only been at the table with v for less than 30 min

Population dependant. Where I play, this is usually ~QQ+/AK from a middle aged guy who isn't getting out of line. If your room is more like TT+/AQ plus a few suited combos, sure, we can't fold pre.

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05-28-2019 , 08:27 AM

#11

Man of Means

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,104

I have folded pre in similar spot and felt good about it. Ranging villain at QQ+. Though of course sample size is small and JJ-TT, AK might be in there as well, population tendencies are that most villains are uncomfortable 3!ing those, esp. out of position.

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05-28-2019 , 08:42 AM

#12

Garick

Oberbiergenießer

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 26,516

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

All of this.

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05-28-2019 , 08:43 AM

#13

ionutd

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

wut?
folding anywhere is beyond bad

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05-28-2019 , 08:56 AM

#14

KID777777

adept

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 869

We can't 4b/fold ever so I don't agree with that at all
But yes I am making my decision pre either to 4b/rip or fold
AP snap

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05-28-2019 , 10:43 AM

#15

Gorgalosk

grinder

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 450

V is tight. V views hero as tight. V STILL 3!'d an utg raise and then open shoved the flop. If you want to advocate a call that's fine, but folding pre is not anywhere near "beyond bad". V just isn't showing up with AK, QQ, JJ enough here to make a fold bad. With a different V or higher stakes I have no problem shoving pre though. And are people really saying the fact that this table is 7 handed means it's less likely V has a hand here that beats you? How often are everyone's V's at 1/3 correctly adjusting to short handed dynamics and opening up their 3! range?

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05-28-2019 , 11:40 AM

#16

c0rnBr34d

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,257

Quote:

Originally Posted by WereBeer

AP flop is a snap call. 6 combos of QQ, 3 of AA, 1 of KK and 6 AK out there. If his range is tighter than that, fold pre. In fact, you can fold pre vs. that range anyway...point is you shouldn't be here unless you think he's wide enough that you now have to call on this board.

Bold is gold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

I like this approach as well. 30 mins is way to early to make non trivial reads. We have been raising a lot and V could be playing back wider than we think.

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05-28-2019 , 11:51 AM

#17

johnny_on_the_spot

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 11,608

Quote:

Originally Posted by KID777777

We can't 4b/fold ever so I don't agree with that at all
But yes I am making my decision pre either to 4b/rip or fold
AP snap

you run into a lot of 5bets in live games that are anything but AA?

i'm not saying i could 4!/fold in real time, but i at least understand why it's suggested, and that is because it's a massive exploit of the live player pool inability to bluff anywhere past a 3bet.

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05-28-2019 , 12:41 PM

#18

gobbledygeek

Poet Laureate of LLSNL

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 36,142

30 minutes is just 1.5 orbits and we've opened a lot thanks to a good run of cards; I mean, does this mean we've opened like a huge 5 out of just 15 hands (raising 1/3rd of hands)? Doesn't mean we're running into JTdd who's finally taking a stand, but I don't necessarily think it means AA/KK either. I'm not flatting preflop (we can't be putting in this much of our stack just hoping to bink the flop and not realize our equity over 5 cards, imo), and due to very short history where it's possible we look a little aggro I'm probably leaning to shoving.

GcluelessNLnoobG

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05-28-2019 , 01:07 PM

#19

johnny_on_the_spot

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 11,608

the "stand they take" with JTs is the 3!, it's not a 5!.

you can disagree with me all you want, but watch your games and report back how many people are 4!+ bluffing any hands? considering how most people don't even 3! bluff in live poker, it's going to be a low % of your player pool.

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05-28-2019 , 01:18 PM

#20

gobbledygeek

Poet Laureate of LLSNL

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 36,142

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot

I'm not even saying they're 3betting JTs either; I'm just saying the 3bet isn't necessarily AA/KK given this 30 minute dynamic.

I completely agree that the 3bet+ is never a bluff. But facing just the 3bet itself with our aggro image, we can still be against hands we're beating (forms of AT+/KQ can still be in the mix) and we put JJ- in a gross spot. I got JJ to fold preflop last session out with a limp/reraise with AK.

GcluelessNLnoobG

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