V (600) opens to 13 UTG
UTG+1 calls
H (300) 3-bets to 60 in MP with AK
V calls

Flop (135): T 9 5
V checks, H ?

Earlier hand:

V (450) called a standard MP $15 raise over limpers OTB where an EP limper (1000) limp/re-raised to $150 in a $45 pot, MP and V both called. Flop came T 9 3 and V called EP's shove and won with T 9 against his AA. He has also shown a tendency to call flop bets if he hits a piece.


a) Are there any demerits to 3betting this V preflop?
b) Thoughts on 3-bet sizing?
c) Flop line? Obv, this board is not good to cbet since V is the type who's never folding to one bet if he has any sort of equity on this board so we'd have to risk more OTT to try and get him to fold, which he may not. OTOH, if we check it back, we're announcing our hand and opening ourselves to getting bluffed OTT.

A). If you say that he calls 3-bets light, then a 3 bet with AKo is a good play for isolation and for value.

B). Is where you get into trouble. After your 3-bet you have $240 behind and the pot is $135 for an SPR of <2. This flop is disgusting, since you caught none of it and it absolutely clobbers a calling range. With an SPR of 2 you are pretty much in stack off mode. Fit/fold play in big 3-bet pots is really a -EV proposition.

C). depends on V's range and bluffing tendencies, which are hard to determine from the info in the post

equilab calcs:

against 5% range (88+, AJs+, KQs+, AKo) you are a 3:1 dog

against 10% range (77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo) you are roughly a 2:1 dog

Even if he calls 3 bets really wide, you don't fare well. 20%, 25%, and 33% ranges all have you at about 2:1 against

All in all a pretty gross spot since it seems your fold equity is bad. Big 3 bet and SPR of 2 you should really be in flop autoshove mode. But... bad fold equity and bad showdown equity make this a likely -EV move.

Summary) 3 bet is good, but sizing is bad. Target a bigger SPR to give yourself better options on the flop. (PNLHE suggests 4.5 - 7 for average/loose V when you have a big card hand).

idk if a higher spr is good enuf reason not to value raise pre vs whales
Also, nice post

I understand playing fit fold here is neg ev which sucks imo what is the other option since you,ve laid out how we're such a dog.. If I have to bet I think 3/4 pot is ev for perceived range from sizing

I just c/f this flop. It sucks a lot.

3betting from MP against a UTG raise and a UTG+1 call is already a strong-looking move. What kind of hand behind you would fold to $60, but call $40-45? From your perspective, UTG and UTG+1 should already have really strong, narrow ranges, so I personally like a smaller 3bet size to fold the junk and go to the flop IP with a drawing hand. Any reads on what he'd do with KK+ facing a 3bet?

I'd just check back the flop. I think almost all the hands that you are behind to wouldn't fold to a bet here. 99+, flushes, etc. The only hand that you have beat that would consider a call is maybe like AcQx. I'd bet the turn if an offsuit A or K came...otherwise just c/f unless you want to get real fancy...

Yea I think we can get away from this hand here even w low spr. I mean it's live and we're shooting fish in a barrel here plus as mentioned above fishes are making moves pre ep w a raise utg and call utg plus one, but I'm sure utg+1 does not have a tighter calling range here pre than say if he was lp

I still like the raise size but not so much the raise now pre w fish lines pre maybe call pre then get aWay post. Problem solved jk

I would 3bet to $40-45 with just the UTG raise out there, but with another caller, I don't want to make it $45 and invite them both along with all sorts of hands. AK seems very vulnerable here and we're happy to take it down pre and collect $30 variance free. If we made it $45 here and UTG+1 came along too with say 77, and flop came AQ7 and stacked us, the advice on this forum would be to "3bet bigger pre".

Ok sorry for millionth post.. I think most vets like the 3 the size and easy? flop
Decision as seen in thread, easily. I'd prolly 3.. But yea I think the player who's taken enough live notes or online HH review will benefit them. Sorry I just realize the benefits of taking live notes/reviewing online HH now and am also willing and will do.

I mean if you know what an opps utg open raise range is who is calling t9s to a huge 3 from utg 3way your gold. And it's live so maybe he's not deviating from that range like ever.. If
It's qq plus ak we can just call

Edit: his utg open range could be wider too from my perspective. I used to do fishy things like call w t9s to a huge bet to bink and take all teh monies and I'd raise aq utg aj 88-jj so yeah idk.. Of coars many things to take into account, villain type, passive or aggro loose or tight, thinking, 2+2er, book reader, classic fish, action junkie ect..

What?

AKo hits about 1/3rd of flops with TPTK. The huge downside of being in a 3-way pot is that you don't get to post threads about whether to bluff in a situation like this one where a random hand has more than 50% equity on average. That's because you can be profitable just value-betting when you hit.

On to the hand I guess we raised large assuming that Villain was very sticky pre and very fit/fold post; that we were creating tons of dead money.

On the other hand the title says sticky Villain while implies that he'd make big mistakes on A or K high flops. So why did we make the ridiculously large 3-bet against someone who we didn't think would fold?

We might as well have shoved pre. AK improves about 50% of the time by the river. Having an SPR of 2.5 and not seeing the river is pretty bad. The Villain could have 8d8h or 8d7d.

Idk man this is just a terrible flop. It happens. I think your 3! Size is a little large but some games require that to thin the field which you don't specify. Otf, you have little chance of improving as 2 of your 6 outs creates a 4 flush and 27 of the remaining cards puts a 4 flush or straight out there. I'm prob done with this hand

We make a large pre-flop bet for value. We are way ahead of his range -- bet what he will call. If you want the other guy to think he's priced in after V calls, bet less.

As played, this stinks. Really not sure what to do. I probably check behind and I am probably done with the hand, but if an A or K comes on the turn, I'm gii against this guy.

With a little dead money in the pot, us being in position, and being able to setup an easy SPR where we can stack off with TP, I'm cool with 3betting. If table is really 3betty behind me, I might flat to re/reaise; I might also consider flatting if Villain is a very tight opener in EP. I'm cool with our 3bet size as it sets up an easy stack off SPR with TP plus denies villain any implied odds against us with speculative hands.

Tough board against sticky villains. There's a bunch of draws that he can easily have, as well as pair+ hands. I'm guessing the only better hands a cbet might fold on this board is something like 66/44/etc. I don't think our hand is necessarily face up as overcards as I think we could also check back overpairs on this board. I probably lean towards a check. If I was to bet, it would be a very small amount (maybe a lol $50) just to see if that gets the job done.

GcluelessNLnoobG

My two biggest issues with PNLHE is that (a) it doesn't address 3bet sizing and the ramifications and (b) I think it's a bit out-to-lunch on how we should react to certain SPRs.

Doing a single raise to setup an SPR of 4 is awesome for TP type hands. But setting up an SPR of 4 with a 3bet can be very problematic. In this case, to setup an SPR of 4 with a 3bet we would probably 3bet to about $27. But there's two problems with that. One, it's a minraise (and just *barely* over a typical "large" open at a 1/3 NL game), which means we definitely won't be getting this HU. Second, even if we did end up getting this HU versus the Villain, we'd be offering him amazing implied odds of 22+ in order to make the call plus he knows we'll have to stack of with our overpair here with this small an SPR (we actually have one of the few 3betting hands that we won't always stack off with cuz we don't have a pair yet).

And I don't believe there are too many villains we should be stacking off to postflop with TP with an SPR of 7 (that's a pot control SPR, imo).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Just because villain has called other flop bets doesn't mean he will call this one. A lot of players play tighter on scary boards like this. Even a fish will notice the 3 clubs out there. And I'm sure the flop bets villain called before when he had any piece of the flop were much smaller than any flop bet here.

I'd actually be tempted to bet around $75-$100 here, but that's because I'm not as convinced that villain will call nearly as often as everyone else thinks. If villain calls he probably will check to us on the turn more often and we can get to the river and hope to either hit by then or check it down (and fold to any bets because we only have ace high on this board). And obviously get it in if we hit.