Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-18-2019, 11:02 PM   #1
dellerrrr
centurion
 
dellerrrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Midwest
Posts: 115
1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

H is young 20s WG who has been playing fairly loose and aggressive. Running well, stack is $1100. V is 30 year old WG, has just sat down and this is his 3rd hand, never seen or played with before. V stack is $500(max buy in for this game).

Pre: 2 folds, H raises to $15 w/ AsJs, folds to blinds who both call.

Flop ($45): Ts2c3s SB checks, V bets $25, H calls, SB calls

Turn ($120): Ts2c3sJd SB checks, V bets $100, H calls, SB folds

River ($320): Ts2c3sJdAd V now checks, H ????

Thoughts on what to do on river would be appreciated. Or any thoughts on how i played it in general. thanks.
dellerrrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 11:16 PM   #2
BackDoorFlush
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,152
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

Stuff river.
BackDoorFlush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 11:31 PM   #3
johnnyBuz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnnyBuz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Beast Coast
Posts: 6,336
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BackDoorFlush View Post
Stuff river.
I don’t really see what you expect to get called by that you beat. Knowing nothing about villain, his most likely donk/donk hands are TT/33/22/KQ/54 all of which beat hero. Seems like villain is waiting for hero to bet to snap him off.
johnnyBuz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 12:52 AM   #4
WereBeer
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,611
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

Villain can have JT/AT to pay off. Seems like they mostly bet river, though by that argument he shouldn't be sandbagging with sets/nuts either.

Tx seems possible as well but we can't expect that to pay a shove.

Spot looks like jam or xb, we can't bet fold.
WereBeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 12:56 AM   #5
johnnyBuz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnnyBuz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Beast Coast
Posts: 6,336
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

I doubt he bombs AT that way on the turn in a 3-way pot. JTs is possible but only 2 combos versus the 11 or so combos we are losing to. If you give him all JTo that's 6 combos so we're still not even close to being ahead of 50% of his calling range.
johnnyBuz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 01:44 AM   #6
chopstick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chopstick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: where the weather suits my clothes
Posts: 8,587
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

JT is the only calling hand that we beat. EZ check back. All other streets played fine.
chopstick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 03:02 AM   #7
BackDoorFlush
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,152
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
I donít really see what you expect to get called by that you beat. Knowing nothing about villain, his most likely donk/donk hands are TT/33/22/KQ/54 all of which beat hero. Seems like villain is waiting for hero to bet to snap him off.
Well, if V puts us on a busted draw, then we might get looked up light.

This is 1/3. Most players are bad. How many of them are actually range checking the river? It seems pretty mubsy to x/b. Let's jam and see if he wants to bluff catch us.

Keep in mind that he is leading the river at some frequency, so those 11 combos should be reduced.
BackDoorFlush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 04:11 AM   #8
Amanaplan
acanalpanamA
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Getting There
Posts: 4,457
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

I would just shove turn. AP bet 70.
Amanaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 05:47 AM   #9
Aulm
centurion
 
Aulm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ultima Thule
Posts: 107
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

My experience with players betting into a PF raiser on this type of flop, is its either top pair or a flush draw. I'd be more worried about the SB calling, than Villain donking.

I don't think Villain leads here with sets. Even fish know these are monster hands, and will check to the PF raiser in order to check-raise, or check call. The fish is trying to protect his top-pair from your two over cards, or semi-bluff with his flush draw.

So I suggest a big raise on the flop. You started out PF saying you have a big hand. Just calling changes that story. Raisin the flop reps Aces, Kings, Queens, Jacks, and AT. This is a good flop for you to do that on as you have the spade draw. So make it $100-$120. Tx will fold most of the time, and so will spade, and straight draws.

If they don't fold, they are going to be OOP against a player showing a lot of strength. You're set to fire bullet two on the turn, as needed. There are a lot of good turn cards that can come.... like the Jd... where your semi-bluff turns into a value bet. But be prepared to fire no matter what.

On the turn the pot is $245, and you will both have eff stacks of $385. So you can fire half pot on the turn, making it about $500 pot on the river, if you are called. So you can fire off the remain $250 on the river. If you hit your hand, then you can get paid off. Plus there is plenty fold equity against the range of hands this man is representing.

On the odd occasions you run into a set, you still have about 30% equity.
Aulm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 06:13 AM   #10
KID777777
adept
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 757
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

Jamming here, if the old guy trapped wp
KID777777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 09:35 AM   #11
dellerrrr
centurion
 
dellerrrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Midwest
Posts: 115
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

H did jam and V folded 23dd face up
dellerrrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 09:42 AM   #12
Lapidator
LLSNL Frequent Flyer
 
Lapidator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Team AOC, only 12 years left!
Posts: 12,793
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

Gotta give V lots of credit here. Nice line.
Lapidator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 10:03 AM   #13
twitcherroo
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,259
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

Grunch - $250 or so.
twitcherroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 10:48 AM   #14
Lapidator
LLSNL Frequent Flyer
 
Lapidator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Team AOC, only 12 years left!
Posts: 12,793
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

The more I think about this hand, the more I think the turn is a fold. Having a hard time putting V on a range that we want to call $100 into $120. We'd have to be 100% certain to get paid if the flush hits, which seems unlikely.
Lapidator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 10:59 AM   #15
shorn7
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,498
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

I think shoving river is bad here. I guess it may look like we missed a FD, but given we cover the board pretty well with top 2, there aren't that many hands that V can call with that we beat. I like super thin value though so I would bet $120 here and hope that JT or AT looks me up.
shorn7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 11:12 AM   #16
dellerrrr
centurion
 
dellerrrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Midwest
Posts: 115
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

I agree that I should probably be down betting river in a vacuum. But in general with all my missed spades or bluffs or combo draws I will be jamming so I think I have to jam. Also I could be wrong but Im pretty sure he would be jamming all 22,33,TT anyways
dellerrrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 11:55 AM   #17
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30,330
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

In EP (and sometimes even LP) I think AJs plays better as a limp than a raise. Not only fitting in with my passive-in-EP overall thinking, but this hand is a lot more borderline than people likely realize (and sometimes a preflop raise will limit Ax hands to better ones who often end up in position, which ain't a great result). Plus it plays fine multiway in high SPR pots.

This deep I think I'm also just calling the flop. If we raise and get jammed on our overs shrivel up considerably and we'd most likely just be on a dirty flush draw and getting in money hugely bad. We're in position and can play some poker plus we're fine with other guy coming along. If SPR was a lot smaller we could lean to raising/jamming to go after the big reward of the big pot with our overs+nutflushdraw, but here the reward (the size of the pot relative to stacks behind) just isn't as great.

Turn is actually a pretty dicey situation facing this big bet. It's still quite possible that we're only on a flush draw and our other "outs" carry big RIO. Against straightforward players who continue betting large on the turn when an overcard to the flop comes, I think this is actually a fold. Against unknowns, especially one who has bought in for the max, it's a real tricky spot, imo. I don't hate a fold here. ETA: Just noticed that it was still 3ways on the turn; I really think this is a fold.

River is also a tricky spot. Is villain lose enough to complete the raise preflop in the BB with T3/T2? What about 32? If not, that really only leaves JT as a two pair that we've moved ahead of. Meanwhile, he may realize how the draws have busted (with the exception of KQss) and might be checking to induce a bluff from a busted draw. Although the nut flush draw just paired up (so he still has value to go against there). Weird spot. Against a guy that we really have no clue what is going on, plus would likely throw up in our mouths a little if check/raised, I don't think checking back is horrendous. But I would mostly bet $100 for value.

Gtrickyhand,imoG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 04:27 PM   #18
Amanaplan
acanalpanamA
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Getting There
Posts: 4,457
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

amending - little too deep to jam, thought it was a 2/5 game.

Still raising turn, calling sometimes, not as a bluff either. Just some guy bet betting, he can have lots of hands. Raising river for sure. He'll have to show me a set.
Amanaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 05:23 PM   #19
$FishWreck$
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 476
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

Grunching:

Bet $160. Stack sizes are super awkward (Not hero's fault all), so hero would have to call if shoved back on. This should happen almost never though. V should have river bet his sets almost always.

Shoving will probably scare off most decent 1/3 V's with JT. I know it's super fishy to put anyone on exactly one hand, but V just reeks of JT, especially with the sizing. This may be why V didn't bet river after coming on so strong on the turn.

I think $160 gives tempting enough pot odds to get a call from JT most of the time.
$FishWreck$ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 05:48 PM   #20
$FishWreck$
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 476
Re: 1/3 AJss Nut Flush Draw, ok to play this way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
The more I think about this hand, the more I think the turn is a fold. Having a hard time putting V on a range that we want to call $100 into $120. We'd have to be 100% certain to get paid if the flush hits, which seems unlikely.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with this. Pretty close though. Would come down to reads if any.
$FishWreck$ is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online