Only been at this table for about 3 orbits, so don't have too many reads on the main villain in this hand.

V (seat 9) has the biggest stack at the table, and saw him stack the villain to his immediate right (seat 8) in a MW pot in which he flopped bottom set and got paid off by top pair. The action was pre-flop raise by seat 8, V in seat 9 calls, and 2 others in the field called. A95 flop, checks to seat 8, cbet $35 into 80ish I believe, seat 9 makes it $100, folds back to seat 8 who calls. c/c turn all-in, seat 9 shoed 55 and is good.

Other 2 villain's in the hand are a bit irrelavant and def two of the weaker players are the table. The very last hand prior to this hand the same 3 V's were involved against hero.

seat 9 and seat 1 limps, seat 2 $10, hero in seat 3 3b to $50 with KK, seat 9, 1, 2 calls. Flop 6s2s7c, seat checks, seat 1 donks for $50 with $150 behind, seat 2 folds, hero ships $210ish, seat 9 folds, seat 1 calls with Q3ss and hero holds.

The very next hand is the hand in question, seat 9, 1, 2 limps, hero has AJo and makes it $30 from hj, all calls.

Flop: A65 all checks to hero, $70/120, seat 9 sorta hollywood tanks, cuts out $70 and about 20 seconds later announces $170, seat 1, 2 folds. Hero has $490 behind after the $70 cbet and seat 9 covers.

Questions
- If hero calls, the expected action on the turn is likely V betting again and the SPR will be about 1, can we call and decide if V somehow checks?
- V has been playing very loose pre and seeing flops, but hasn't shown too much aggression, is his line more consistent with, say, two pair+ or an A8-AT type hand trying to see where he's at?

I don't know if its just because I'm being results oriented with AJ in raised pots lately or not, but I think I would sigh consider overlimping, although this is really dependent on stacks and likelyhood of the poor limpers limping in a dominating hand (do they passively limp AK/AQ or would they always raise them?). After 3 limps, it is just so difficult to narrow the field at my typical table (I would also easily go $30+ at my table as you've done), and yet I feel I'm just putting in *far* too much money preflop with a kinda meh hand that could sometimes be dominated by passive limpers. Especially in the HJ with still 4 opponents to act, where if any of them calls we're going 5+ ways to the flop. This used to be an autoraise for me, but at some tables I now overlimp and see what happens.

I might consider checking back this flop. It's pretty dry, and I'm kinda cool with not playing for stacks if possible and eking out just another bet (or two if warranted) by underrepping.

As played, easy fold to the check/raise. So far he's only doing this with monsters. Our hand basically looks exactly like it is; what, we're betting something else 4ways other than an Ace? It's pretty obvious we're betting for value against the fish. He's also got fish behind him who could have smacked this. There's also no huge draw he could be pushing. He's not getting out-of-hand here, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Your sizing is too large all throughout for the strength of your hand. I would have gone $25 pre after 3 limps which would make this a $100 pot on the flop instead of $120.

What are you trying to get value from betting $70 here? TT-77 are all going to fold at that sizing and you beat very few Ax hands. At a 1/3 game you are going to see lots of players l/c small PP’s’s up front and here you got 3 doing just that. They all have 55, 66, 56s hands in their range.

As played I would be betting around $40/120 here. If you went $25 pre I’d bet $30/100. You really don’t want to overextend yourself with a hand like AJ here. A smaller sizing allows you to extract value from a wider range of hands as well as the 78 OESD.

As played I’m folding and feeling fine about it. You just c-bet Axx 4-way and the very next guy to act has raised with two players still behind. This is nearly always 2p+.

And no, limping this from the HJ is not the solution gg.

Hero folded, and didn’t really think twice about it.

I guess the deeper question with the hand is the bet sizing. I’m fine with the $30, I think $5 extra might dissuade a player on the edge about coming into the pot.

The V’s in seat 9 n 1 didn’t fit this criteria, obviously.


As is, is ur main reasoning for betting smaller on the flop to get weaker Ax in and keep their OESDs in?

If so, just a as side note, say we’re 3 ways on the flop and hero has JJ, would you still bet $40 and maybe DB or bet larger once and give up and/or look for show down.


And, I don’t think limping is an option either. Raise or fold.


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JJ I’m x back and seeing how the turn develops. There’s a huge difference between AJ and JJ.

Smaller sizing has nothing to do with their Ax range - that’s never folding to one bet. It’s to target the rest of their range that is elastic to bet size.

The fact that you just won a pot with a hand like KK to me pushes it towards playing AJ more softly.

People are going to think 1) you are playing your rush. 2) You are less likely to have AA, KK, QQ, AK because you just had KK.

So, they're probably going to have more suspicious of you and be playing more to trap. So, you are going to make less money off aggression and more money off thinner value. Also, people will be trapping/passive more often so you don't want to overplay your hands and AJ is exactly the kind of hand you can overplay.

The best response to all of this is to go into a more small ball style with medium hands like AJ and suck value from hands like weak aces, draws or some goofy hero calls and lose less when trapped.

1) I don't think you can call. However, if you do call and he checks, I'd probably check too. It would be an odd situation. But if he was bluffing he is done. If he has you beat he isn't folding. If he has a worse ace, he might be folding to a bet anyway. If he has a straight draw that doesn't hit, oh well. I guess I'll just give him a free card.

2) This guy is very unlikely to be "seeing where he is at." As I said, people are going to be more in bluff catching/trap mode here. This is probably a trap. Consider the board and the fact that you raised big pre. He's hoping you hit an ace and will pay him off.

I'm certainly not fond of it either.

But I think a large part of it comes down to situations you and I find good vs bad regarding preflop results. I think one of the main goals of a preflop raise (almost the only goal unless we're cool stacking off multiway) is to narrow the field; but I know you don't see this as a goal. My guess is you play in deeper 2/5 games where you're more comfortable with these spots than I am. A lesser raise is simply going to result in a very multiway lowish SPR pot which I find difficult. So I would tend to raise much bigger in an attempt to narrow the field. The problem with a hand like this though is that I would end up putting in far too much money with a mediocre hand; I mean, clearly in order to narrow the field here (or even take down the pot preflop which isn't a disaster) we'd need like a $40+ raise, and now we're approaching the point where we might only get called by better. So I consider the alternative route of limping, keeping a skyhigh SPR, where I play a little smallball postflop poker in position, possibly capitalizing on dominated hands that would have folded to any raise.

I know we disagree on this, but it's up to OP to decide for himself (based on his postflop skillz). In the end OP made a hugenormous bet on the flop, one that I believe both of us are not a fan of (I'm cool with a super small bet but prefer a check myself, although a lot of that is image dependent), plus is considering continuing to a check/raise (I believe both of us aren't even remotely considering this), so I'm not sold yet on his postflop skillz. This is not a raise vs fold situation preflop, imo, but if you do raise to create a bloated multiway pot you better have the skillz to back it up (you probably do) or else you will quickly get in trouble.

GcluelessNLnoobG

You taylor pfr based on the value of your hand? Raise depends on standard size necessary to think the field imo, but when pfr my raises are the same irrelevant of hand strength and I feel this is important to keep consistent.

Agree with smaller on the flop but I'd make it $50. Folding to the c/r is easy.

No I just think $30 is unnecessarily large. 7x + 1 per limper is large regardless of the limit you are playing. He didn't list effective stacks for all the players, but a smaller SPR also makes hands easier to play for your OOP opponents and takes away from your postflop flexibility.

It's why you don't usually see $35 opens at a 'normal' 2/5 game or $70 opens at a 'normal' 5/10.

20 pre. 30 is a joke, whether you want to believe it or not is up to you.
On A65r you cant bet more than half pot but should be betting a whole lot of hands, real often, 4 handed IP to win/get heads up and then decide if you want to play for value or showdown on the turn.

AP, I suppose just fold against what I would assume is a ridiculously unbalanced value range. Had you sized each street correctly, you likely would have disincentivized V from frequent ckr which means you get to see more turns/more showdowns.

Why is $30 a joke?


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Nice fold, highly unlikely that guy is bluffing OOP with that sizing and with 2 droolers behind him. Bigger raise sizes are fine if people aren't punishing you and this table didn't seem capable.

Next time please post the suits of your cards so it's easier to pinpoint villain's range. If you have Ace of clubs for example, you block 2 combos of his 2 pair+ range.

You just leave yourself no room to routinely operate as well post which is where the money is made. You are needlessly burning money more often than not without gaining any clear EV edge as a result of the stationing nature of 1/3. That is bc any bet scaling advantage you might gain when you flop well in a big pot is negligible since you can easily just size up later in the hand without altering continuing ranges. Saving that money pre goes a long way in these card contest games bc you’ll be going 3-6 ways often.
All the limpers and overlimpers just want cheap flops with hands that can make the nuts, and pay for more turns for less money, all in an effort to outvalue the next guy. Making it 20 throws a wrench into nitstationland and you may as well take the rebate when you want to raise a lot of hands against these dopes.

Make it 20 and love life. Overlimp and fall in line with the rest of them.

Now tell me why you think 30 is ‘better’?

EZ flop fold, while the x/r sizing is small, he's doing it into three players which means super strength. I'd expect v to have all the 2p+ combos. Unless he's mentally challenged he should have close to zero bluff combos here.

Edit: $20 pre is fine, in the future versus these players I'd set up my fat value hands for a $30 open and my thinner value like AJo on the smaller side (assuming the villains are not able/willing to exploit sizing tells).

Edit #2: flop sizing is a tad too big, I want peels from all Ax and any draws. I'd go $55. It's less than half a PSB which should make it more attractive for light calls while saving $ when we get x/r and need to fold.

Edit #3 Lol GG, limping behind is uber tight and a losing proposition unless players behind us are super observant and willing to 3b light. We leave way too much value on the table versus a weak, passive table. Even with good players yet to act, I'm opening AJo in this spot almost always.

Edit #4 GG makes a good point about checking back here. We have the best hand a lot and we may be able to get two streets from worse who think they can bluff turn and river or value cut themselves with worse. However, at $1/2, I'm going for straight value. Bigger games with better competition who I have history with, I'd consider checking for deception and balance.

For me it all comes down to whether one of your preflop goals is to narrow the field.

After 3 limps at my typical loose table, a $20 raise in the HJ is going 5+ ways to the flop almost every single time. If you're cool with that result, then go $20.

But if you're not cool with that result, and you're attempting to narrow the field with your raise, then you're simply going to have to raise far more. The problem with that, as I've mentioned earlier, is that at this table we might actually have to end up putting in far more with a fairly mediocre hand in order to accomplish this (since $30 didn't do the trick either).

Gitdependswhatyourgoalis,imoG

Thanks for all the responses.

Addressing the 20, 25 or 30 pre-flop raise. The hand ultimately came down to a raise/fold situation. As GG mentioned above, in most tables a 20 bet gets this hand going 5 ways. Obviously that's exactly what happened even with a 30 bet, but I don't want to be result oriented. I'd still go 30 when choosing to raise this pre.

After much thought, I think a smaller flop bet is def better. I didn't give the c-bet sizing much thoughts tbh.

@johnnybuzz, sure a smaller pre-flop raise and a smaller c-bet is an option, but V's in this game would've called 20 from lp or the blinds, hence going 30 pre. But, I agree with a smaller c-bet for sure. I brought up the JJ hand as an example to c-betting with an under pair to the Ace, but that was a bad example as I check JJ back as well.


@Amanaplan, i don't think my sizing pre/post flop gave seat 9 any incentive to c/r, I don't think most V's at this level are capable of c/r bluffing or semi-bluffing. His c/r is indicative of a strong value range, not him trying to get me off of a hand.



Lastly, @GG you mentioned that for this hand you're 'ok' with getting 1-2 streets of value instead of 3. My intentions were not to go for 3 streets, I know it's super hard to get 3 streets with this particular hand.

@forum, say we're going for 2 streets, what's the advantage/disadvantage of betting flop and checking turn or river, vs checking flop and going for turn/river value. In this hand, are we 'ok' with checking back flop and if villain's check to us on the turn/river we should fire? My line of thinking is, if we check back the flop, we almost always have to call down (bet size dependent of course) especially since our hand is under repped.


I'll take someone's input on checking back flop and betting turn/river vs betting flop and checking turn or river

You seldom want to be checking back a top pair hand 4-way, especially an A56 board. You’re rarely improving and their combined equity is too high.

While I agree the worlds combined equity is probably decent, the individual equity of each opponent is likely fairly low (if we are ahead). A bet on the flop usually takes it down when we're ahead but gets called by the higher equity / better hands, so I'm not exactly convinced that's a good reason for betting (especially on drier boards like this one, especially with our fairly mediocre kicker which is in danger of being outkicked having people limp/called this huge raise). If everyone is straightforward ABC nitty non bluffy, that might be fine. Otherwise, I'm kinda cool with checking back to setup bluffcatchers or make some money off of hands that would have folded to a flop bet but now think they might be good, or even simply not to build a huge pot (a flop checkback guarantees a smaller pot, although we're probably beyond that point now thanks to preflop).

That said, pot is huge on the flop and simply taking it down with a small flop bet is an extremely good result.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Just based on a few orbits of play at the table, I'm not so concerned about being out kicked unless it's A5 or A6 for two pairs. Seat 1 called with Q3ss in the previous hand, seat2 is completing the action so his range is wide as well. Seat 9 on the other hand, i'd suspect he opens AQ or AK from ep.

I'm not saying these villain's can't have AK/AQ, in this particular spot and these particular villain's i'd expect them to have mostly pairs, draws and AJ-A2

This isn't necessarily true but maybe for a different reason than you think. Checking back has more to do with OUR hand value relative to the field (hint: not very good) as we didn't flop huge vs 4 players. Also, when we are ahead, we will never get 3 streets of value if we stay ahead so checking one street is generally going to happen when we don't hit another card. I am fine with that street being the flop on this board as it isn't that draw heavy.

Sure, we give smaller pairs a free shot at their set but we keep the pot smaller with a marginal holding (vs 4 players...obv HU this is a clear c-bet) so we lose less when we are already behind. Another example of using a check in position as a weapon that protects your stack and keeps you out of potentially difficult spots where we can be outplayed.

I would play that hand same way you did but size the flop bet a bit lower. With four players behind I would probably bet ~30% of the pot on flop and hope for a cheap showdown..

Thank you all for your responses. I think the consensus here is that the flop bet should've been smaller, and I agree for all the reason's y'all mentioned. I'm on the side of betting $30 pre, and this is primarily game depended and the feel for villain's I had.

AP, hero bet 70, V c/r $170 and hero folded.

$30 pre is lighting money on fire for all the reasons Amana and Johnny stated. If there were already 5 limps I might get behind it for the "thin the field" argument, but there were only 2 limps before us. $20 is proper and lets us open much wider without destroying our winrate all the times we miss the flop in a MW pot.

There were 3 limps in front. Isn’t $20 lighting money on fire all the times we miss???

As I’ve stated in multiple posts in this thread, we differ on pre flop bet size. I was looking for input on the flop action.


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