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Old 11-14-2017, 09:47 PM   #1
Buccofan86
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1/3 Aces on a paired flop

I've been playing very tight, been card dead and don't think I've shown down a hand in probably two hours beyond stuff in the blinds that got checked down. I had aces all in pre, lost to qt but didn't show.

V1 has $150
V2 has $275
V3 has $325
Hero covers

Utg raise to $8, v1 2 and 3 call, hero raises to $35 with AA (too small?), folds to v1 and all villains call

Pot is around $145 going to flop

Flop 55K

V1 leads out for $50. To me this is a weak hand. Something like a weak K, a flush draw, or pocket tens. Based on his play his range is wide but I definitely don't think he has a 5

V2 and v3 both flat

Hero...???

My thinking is that v1 is weak and I'm for sure ahead of him. Most likely has a pair between 6s and qq, with a bunch of kx and some flush draws. V2 and 3 have been playing loose so their range is wide. Anything from flush draws to kx to a five is possible.

When the action gets to me the pot is nearly $300, $50 to call. What do we think? Keep in mind I do have backdoor nut flush draw as well. And I've been playing super tight mostly due to being totally card dead.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:58 PM   #2
iraisetoomuch
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Rip it in.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:11 PM   #3
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Preflop probably should have been a bit bigger after the $8 got a couple of calls but it's OK. V1 and V2 can never be getting reasonable odds. V3 wouldn't be either except both V1 and V2 called so he is getting marginal odds to call more.

As played shove the flop. There is a good enough chance you have best hand and are facing heart draws/AK that you can't fold. Sometimes you will run into KK but that's just a cold deck.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:48 PM   #4
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

I don't really love the spot. Can't fault an all-in but in game I'm maybe flatting and evaluating action on turn. Don't really like a shove here as I'm guessing a 5 is in play and I need an A to catch up. I think if I was on my A game I'd muck, move on and not really worry about it. Donk, call, call is some idiot slow playing 57s thinking it's the nuts.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:10 PM   #5
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Not a huge fan of this spot. We have three players putting money in the pot on a board where it seems pretty hard to put money in without a K, 5 or FD. Like maybe it's two kings and a FD or something. Seems like jamming is going to walk into a 5 a lot more often than it gets value from stuff. The board is also completely dry other than the FD, like there's nothing else people can hit that will hurt us. Jamming might be OK if we've just decided that we cannot get away from the hand, but I'm not sure I'm at that point just yet.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:32 PM   #6
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Interesting comments guys, thanks.

I was never afraid of kk here, btw. If someone had kk and didn't repop preflop then so be it. I discounted that from everyone's range totally. So in my head I was going forward as if no one had kk.

Just a bad spot overall, imo. If I had like 600 behind instead of just $240 to worry about, it's an easy fold/flat decision with me probably flatting to see what comes since I have position. I'd never raise if stacks were much deeper.

Anyway, I went all in, and somewhat surprisingly everyone called. V1 had KTo which was pretty much what I thought. V2 had Q8hh so just a flush draw. V3 had 45o. Turn was a heart giving me slim hope as I picked up the flush draw along with the two aces for outs. River was a blank and the Q high flush took it down.

Looking back I'm glad my read on V1 was solid. The way this game plays is that when someone leads out like that, they are weak almost always. A random draw, overcards that whiffed, or a weak top/middle pair.

Also glad that I played extremely tight for literally 2+ hours and still got my 3bet called by KTo, Q8s, and 45o all out of position.

I guess another thing I need to consider is that when more than one person is calling or raising that they definitely could be slow playing a huge hand, even if it's dangerous. Like I'm not sure why the guy with trips didn't jam the flop. He's giving flush draws great odds and won't be folding ever unless it runs hearts to put 4 on board. I may need to tighten up a lot as pots are multi way post flop. If it was just me and v1 and maybe even one other v then a shove makes way more sense since I effectively know v1 is way behind and a heart on the turn makes it way easier to evaluate.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:35 PM   #7
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

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Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
I don't really love the spot. Can't fault an all-in but in game I'm maybe flatting and evaluating action on turn. Don't really like a shove here as I'm guessing a 5 is in play and I need an A to catch up. I think if I was on my A game I'd muck, move on and not really worry about it. Donk, call, call is some idiot slow playing 57s thinking it's the nuts.
What's your plan if you flat and the turn is a heart? You now have the nut flush draw obviously. Assume someone bets the turn if it's a heart, do you ever fold? I guess it depends on who bets, how much, who calls etc but I'm curious what your line would be facing a bet of say $75 on a turn that's a heart.

Also what about a blank turn that checks around?
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:13 AM   #8
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

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Originally Posted by Buccofan86 View Post
What's your plan if you flat and the turn is a heart? You now have the nut flush draw obviously. Assume someone bets the turn if it's a heart, do you ever fold? I guess it depends on who bets, how much, who calls etc but I'm curious what your line would be facing a bet of say $75 on a turn that's a heart.

Also what about a blank turn that checks around?
No real plan for flatting. It would be a leaky, weak, desperation flat hoping the K hands and the draws slow down and I get to realize SD value on a brick/brick runout. Not a good plan obviously. I think fold here is the play. 3 V's, someone has the 5.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:25 AM   #9
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Haha this is a kinda sick spot. Cool hand

Yeah I'd prefer $40 or $45 pre but meh. If there's one hand you don't mind raising slightly smaller with pre it's aces.

Flop is actually really close. Given the extremely small SPR it's hard to see how we ever get away from this hand. If you're gonna fold aces combos then I guess in this exact spot the best combos to fold would be the ones with the Ah cause it significantly removes hands you want your opponents to have. I don't think it's gonna be a huge mistake to jam this flop or to fold tbh. In game 100% I'd just jam but I don't mind a fold.
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:07 AM   #10
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Ended up being a really rough session. Like I said earlier had aces all in pre for like $86 and lost to qt

Had aces another time, brand new player opened to $20 I 3! to 70 and everyone folds.

Then I get kk, raise, 2 callers flop AKT and run into a short stack who has QJo

And those were really the only hands I played where I volunteered money into the pot in 8 hours, other than an early big pot I won with a straight.

Just thought this hand was interesting and kinda a perfect storm. Bigger stacks I likely flat and see what happens or just give up flop. Smaller stacks and there's really no decision just jam it in easily
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:48 AM   #11
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Whatever. If someone called a 3-bet with 5x good for them.

I don’t actually see how it’s a tough spot. The donk bet is small and fish will be fish. I’d be pretty happy to see this much action ahead of me here.
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Old 11-15-2017, 03:11 AM   #12
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Yeah that was kind of my thinking. I knew I had v1 beat easily and figured there were enough flush draws and kings out there plus maybe someone had a hand like JJ and didn't want to give up for just $50. If you figure v1 for a weak king and then the other two V for either a fd or a king it seems like an easy shove especially since two of them could have a flush draw and with my Ah their outs would be slim. Meh. Just making sure I wasn't spewing.
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Old 11-15-2017, 05:39 AM   #13
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

I like the 35. I'd shove there. That many guys with aces is nuts. I would only assume 2 folds there to your shove.
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Old 11-15-2017, 05:46 AM   #14
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Wow, just read the conclusion! That's a really good game when 3 yahoos call a shove that covers them. Poker dead? Nope
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Old 11-15-2017, 06:18 AM   #15
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
Not a huge fan of this spot. We have three players putting money in the pot on a board where it seems pretty hard to put money in without a K, 5 or FD. Like maybe it's two kings and a FD or something. Seems like jamming is going to walk into a 5 a lot more often than it gets value from stuff. The board is also completely dry other than the FD, like there's nothing else people can hit that will hurt us. Jamming might be OK if we've just decided that we cannot get away from the hand, but I'm not sure I'm at that point just yet.
+1 to that. It´s pretty likely at this point that we are up against 5x, but by shoving we usually just make sure of it. I also really don´t like that the deepest villain is the one doing the over-overcall of a donkbet leading into a preflop 3bettor and represents the most strenght.

Seeing results and what they called it off with, it might actually be a shove after all, but I think it´s a call at this point. It´s not like we aren´t capable of seeing a heart if it hits.

If turn gets bet after flop action, I´m folding. if everyone checks, shoving? It is a very unusual spot
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:41 AM   #16
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

$45 pre, although given these particular results I'm not sure the 45o V would care about the sizing.

Seems like he's one of those people that makes up their mind about calling a particular hand regardless.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:40 PM   #17
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

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Originally Posted by Chicagodude View Post
Wow, just read the conclusion! That's a really good game when 3 yahoos call a shove that covers them. Poker dead? Nope
V1 was a complete idiot, obviously his weak K was no good if he was paying attention. I didn't play a hand for hours, I 3 bet pre and shoved over heavy flop action.

V2 had the flush draw but only the second best one. He also could be drawing dead as kk is definitely in my range here, or someone else could have the nut draw

V3 can't fold the flop with trips especially after I shove and both other V call. He's getting crazy odds with flopped trips and his stack isn't huge. But calling $8 preflop, then $27 more with 45o is, uhhh. Yeah. Not good.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:43 PM   #18
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

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Originally Posted by setintostraight View Post
$45 pre, although given these particular results I'm not sure the 45o V would care about the sizing.

Seems like he's one of those people that makes up their mind about calling a particular hand regardless.
It's funny he said "$35 isn't enough preflop the way this game is going" after the hand. I was a bit puzzled because to me, the game was fairly passive preflop. It wasn't like every other hand was $40 pre. There were like one or two guys who would raise to $17 here and there but quite often you could limp in and see a flop. There were even a few chopped blinds.
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:38 PM   #19
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

I'd 3bet closer to $50 to prevent setmining odds (since we won't be able to fold postflop given the SPR). A raise to $35 gives slightly too good IO to the deeper stacks, plus in my game if the initial raiser calls then the other two are also going to come along for the ride to this sizing (given that the original open is *so* small, noting that my game is sometimes loose enough where a $35 *open* can get multiple callers).

Having 3 people interested in this flop is quite weird, but you'd think the only hand that could really be ahead is 55 or possibly 2 combos of A5. If someone has those, I think we have to go broke with this pot size relative to our stack. It's also still very possible we're ahead of a Kx and/or big pair plus a flush draw. I shove now.

ETA: Basically this is why we need to raise a bit more preflop; it's not necessarily to lose a hand like 54o, but it is to charge him too much to call profitably if there is no way we can fold postflop (and even a HU SPR I don't think we'd be able to fold postflop, let alone to this very small SPR created multiway). In the end, he got 16+:1 IO to call closing the action; it's certainly lose, and probably pretty bad, but it might not be as horrific as it looks (considering he ended up making 28:1 on his call, albeit that was admittedly best case scenario, plus had a very easy-to-play hand postflop). Not thrilled with the flop action, but I'm not sure we can do anything else (flatting creates a $340 pot with us having $240 left, what, we're just going to give a free card and fold on scare cards?).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 11-15-2017 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:12 PM   #20
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Wow, my initial read of this was auto fold on the flop. The mere presence of two callers after the lead in a 3-bet pot significantly increases the likelihood of at least one 5 to be held. If there were just one call after the donk, then I can see continuing but not two.

I don't see any merit to shoving this flop no matter the number of opponents, especially with the nut blocker in our hand. I think even calling the flop is very marginal with a one pair hand after all that action. Doesn't matter what they actually turned over (which, TBF, was donkalicious), but their range for calling preflop in a 3B pot and calling the weak lead.

Maybe I am turning into a nit though, who knows.
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Old 11-15-2017, 06:51 PM   #21
Buccofan86
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

I wonder what my equity is if we stipulate the following

1. No one has kk
2. V1 doesn't have a 5
3. All 3 V have either Kx, 5x, or a flush draw
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:16 PM   #22
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
ETA: Basically this is why we need to raise a bit more preflop; it's not necessarily to lose a hand like 54o, but it is to charge him too much to call profitably if there is no way we can fold postflop (and even a HU SPR I don't think we'd be able to fold postflop, let alone to this very small SPR created multiway). In the end, he got 16+:1 IO to call closing the action; it's certainly lose, and probably pretty bad, but it might not be as horrific as it looks (considering he ended up making 28:1 on his call, albeit that was admittedly best case scenario, plus had a very easy-to-play hand postflop). Not thrilled with the flop action, but I'm not sure we can do anything else (flatting creates a $340 pot with us having $240 left, what, we're just going to give a free card and fold on scare cards?).

GcluelessNLnoobG
Did he really get 28:1 if he lost?

When people consider implied odds they often forget to consider that they're not getting it in with 100% equity, especially with a hand like 54o. For example, 54o only had about 60% equity here. It also only has about 60% equity HU against {KK+,AK} on a board of K54.
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:35 PM   #23
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

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Did he really get 28:1 if he lost?

When people consider implied odds they often forget to consider that they're not getting it in with 100% equity, especially with a hand like 54o. For example, 54o only had about 60% equity here. It also only has about 60% equity HU against {KK+,AK} on a board of K54.
45o didn't even win the hand, the flush came and Q8 won

He could have very easily been drawing stone dead on the flop since I have KK here a non trivial % of the time, or someone else has him crippled with a higher flush draw. He's also dead if someone has 55 or k5 and behind pretty much everything including ace high lol
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:51 AM   #24
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

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Wow, my initial read of this was auto fold on the flop. The mere presence of two callers after the lead in a 3-bet pot significantly increases the likelihood of at least one 5 to be held. If there were just one call after the donk, then I can see continuing but not two.

I don't see any merit to shoving this flop no matter the number of opponents, especially with the nut blocker in our hand. I think even calling the flop is very marginal with a one pair hand after all that action. Doesn't matter what they actually turned over (which, TBF, was donkalicious), but their range for calling preflop in a 3B pot and calling the weak lead.

Maybe I am turning into a nit though, who knows.
Pretty much agree with this. Someone catching a 5 here is rarely raising. Especially because you 3 bet and are behind them. I doubt I would raise a 5, if I somehow was in that spot.

TT probably folds a fair amount and JJ slightly less as v2. I think they both fold a lot as v3.. They also might have re-raised the $8.

I wouldn't totally discount KK. At least in my games, some people are reluctant to 3 and 4 bet KK. Though, your smaller raise might cause them to do so more often.

Fold is probably best but I'd call. I think there is some chance you are good.

If a H comes on the turn, it might even get checked around because the flush is slowplaying/a little scared of the paired board.

On the turn, the V1 will probably check and any 5 will be forced to speak up, while flush draws and worse PPs will probably be content to check and hope. So the turn should be easy.

Additionally, you might hit. Very small chance, but if you are likely to be in a huge pot and losing only to 5555 and maybe a rivered KKKK. So you're getting something in the area of 10-1 on the $50, when you are behind. Not worth it alone, but enough to factor in for sure.
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:04 AM   #25
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Re: 1/3 Aces on a paired flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buccofan86 View Post
45o didn't even win the hand, the flush came and Q8 won

He could have very easily been drawing stone dead on the flop since I have KK here a non trivial % of the time, or someone else has him crippled with a higher flush draw. He's also dead if someone has 55 or k5 and behind pretty much everything including ace high lol

lol. oh ****. that is funny.

yeah, that is just a high variance spot. I have seen paired board flops like that where 3 players have naked flush draws and other paired board flops like that where two players have trips and a third is already boated up.

It is really player dependent. But in future situations, if you can reliably count at least one of your V's as solid, meaning that he would never be in there with a weak K or naked flush draw, then folding AA on that flop would not be bad.

Not sure how you viewed the 3 V's in this pot, but I think that either folding the flop or shoving could be considered correct depending on how your V's were playing.
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