H(UTG) $525 - active image with V1, H called a $400 4bet shove from V w/AK in a bb/btn battle. Saw me jamming flop with a big combo draw with another V. However V has seen that I do have a fold button.

V1 (SB) covers - loose splashy player, likes to raise and call very wide.

V2 (BB) $190 - new to the table - no real reads

H makes it $15 w/AA and goes 7 way with V1,V2 calling from the blinds

Flop 552r ($105)
Checked to H, $50, all others fold, V1 calls, V2 jams $175 total, H thinks for a while and calls, V1 snap ships $510 total eff

Hero??

I think I like checking specifically AA here, we block a lot of wheel draws anyway and the board is mega dry so we don't need to protect ourselves from anything. When we bet here it screams strength so I think we can induce more mistakes by keeping ranges wider if we check. 99-KK definitely just putting in the std cbet, 88 and below x/f for sure.

AP we have zero info on his postflop tendencies so hard to say. Does he raise aggressively, does he ever overvalue mid-strength hands....?

AA is literally the best hand you have here but i don't know if it's a +EV call. It's close because we block A5s and A5o. Definitely snap folding 99-KK to the shove for sure.

Also, how loose is he? 30/5, or something like 70/10? Because if it's the latter I'm more inclined to fold since he can show up with hands like A5o/A5s/K5s/Q5s/J5s/105s/95s/85s/75s/65s/54s/53s/52s/22 at high or max frequencies.

Maybe something like 45/30, raising a lot in pos particularly.
Postflop I have seen him flop raise a HU cbet w/underpair on a paired board but can also play passive and call down with gutters, backdoors for example

Why would you x/f 88 and below lol? 66-88 is almost the same thing as 99-KK on a 552r board in a SRP imo. Maybe 66, but it seems too weak to xf 77-88 here.

I’m cbetting 66-KK. AA I agree can be a check.

Call. The pot is too big to fold AA on this board and V1 has very little reason to shove with 5x or 22 here.

PS...Stop raising only $15 with AA in EP and you wont get in these situations.

No they’re not..... lol. 99 beats more weaker overpairs than 66 does. It’s not rocket science. KK beats 30-40+ combos of more weaker overpairs than 66 does. They’re not anywhere near the same.

We’re almost never getting folds with a cbet here so how are you gonna play turns and rivers with 66-88? Just pray it checks all the way down?

Most people 3b JJ+ anyway, so the chance that we are up against overpairs when we have 77-88 is minimal. Also, it’s a disaster to give their overcards a free card when we can just bet and fold to any raise or check/fold turn if called.

If we have 77, they still have 18 combos of 88-1010, say half of JJ and 1/3 of QQ so total of 22-23 combos. And there are people who just flat KK/AA too but i just left that out. Then they have A5/A4/22/A3, K5s, Q5s, 65s and a bunch of 5x here and it’s 7 way to to the flop.

I dont really think it’s a disaster if they get a free overcard when im already done with the hand, plus 7 way it’s more likely than not someone’s going to bet anyway. So the chance of them catching an overcard isnt high at all to begin with.

Disagree Mike.

V1 called pre from the SB. If he had JJ-KK he would definitely squeezed preflop. Why would he think a smaller overpair would be good after this flop action?


If he's on a semibluff with 43 then he shouldn't expect to have any FE, and the pot is protected anyway. Plus, its a paired board, so its a crappy spot to chase a straight draw as well.


The logic doesn't add up. This is 5x blowing his load wanting to get the money in now before any potential scare cards hit.

Well, you want to fold AA so I guess he does have FE

Paired board doesnt really dissuade anyone from chasing a straight draw when the paired board is specifically 552. There will be very few boats in this situation.

I called a raise with QQ yesterday. and Im pretty aggro. Big pairs dont always 3 bet. He probably doesnt have QQ but he could easily have just about any lower PP depending on the player.

V1 is a "loose splashy player who likes to call and raise very wide"

We could be beat but Im not folding.

PS...We have to go with OP's read. He specifically said that villain likes to call and raise very wide. If hes seen him raise hands like this very wide many times that means, which is what the read indicates, there's no way we can fold AA. If hes seen him make a weird raise once and is using that (and putting it in his read) to justify his call and get us to tell him his call was correct, then thats on him.

I just don't see even most aggro guys raising worse than trips here.

Sometimes we don't need a defense range even vs aggro opponents.

Raising bigger UTG also doesn't cure multi-way problems. Calling ranges seem to be fairly inelastic preflop. Plus smaller sizes does tend to get squeezed more often which is huge bonus for a tight UTG range we should have.

He doesn't know hero would fold AA, or any overpair, that's why it's an exploitative fold. We just called an all in raise. Nobody would ever try to bluff when there is NOTHING IN THE SIDE POT. What does he stand to gain?



"Calling very wide" means he has like 500 combos of 5x here.

Raising wide means he's aggro sure. But that's a lot different than shoving your stack in this deep given the action. "Raising wide" probably means he's semi-bluffed over a c-bet once or twice this session. Maybe thrown in a lite 3-bet once. That's pretty aggro for most people at 1/3.

Aggro guy honestly probably puts hero on TT-QQ and is shoving to get the money in now just in case an overcard peels off. He probably thinks hero would just snap jam over the first all in with AA because that's what he would do in that spot.

Also, people lose their sh*t when they have a nutted hand and don't think to themselves "maybe I would make more $ if I slowplay this?" They just cram it in since nobody folds anyway.

This is actually ****ing disgusting. I call and hate life because there's enough times some crappy aggro player is doing this with 66-TT or some terribly played JJ-KK.

Ship it and pray for justice.

If somebody is this bad. Can't we just fold and look for better spot (can't believe I said "look for better spot").

I mean he would have to be beyond terrible and overplay a ton of hands.

7 people called a 5x raise from UTG pre so I suppose it wouldn't be long before there is a better spot. Still, I've been in similar spots before and have seen the most off the wall ****. I wouldn't be surprised if BB has a 5 but I believe SB has a worse PP or 45o more often than not.

Definitely wouldn't fault a fold but if you are properly rolled for the game, I think you call it off.

If you love the preflop result, keep doing that. Otherwise, don't do that, imo.

I just check the flop to underrep on this completely drawless board where even giving a free card to the world will likely not be too much of a problem (also not expecting this to check thru as someone with their pocket pair will bet).

I fold to the first action. First, we'd likely have to be an idiot to be betting anything other than an overpair into eleventeen players. Second, V1 just called and could easily have a 5 (this is a very scary call). But V2 doesn't seem to care about any of that and jams anyways (an awesome play with 5x if two people are willing to call).

As played, I think a trivial fold as it should be clear that V1 has to have a 5 (and V2 could still have one too).

GhownottoplayAA,imoG

Your being results oriented. Limping doesn't cure all. I am 100% certain you have limped AA utg. Got multiple callers and lost decent size pot to a rag hand.

Only mistake made was flop sizing is to big. 1/3 pot is plenty. Or check calling. Really haven't broken down 7way pots on paired boards. As it is super rare.

Threads like this are worthless if people dont post results. You may think the results dont matter but that's nonsense.

The results of this one particular hand dont change our assumptions all that much about whether it was a call or not, but if we see 20 hands similar to this posted and a lot of people think its a fold, but the results were that 17 of those 20 times, we should've called, people's assumptions should start to change.

Its the same with results in general. People always think their line is the best line. If they make a thin value bet that doesnt work, they think, "Oh well, I just ran into the top of his range this time" and they continue to play the same way....but if their medium to long term results aren't great, there's a good chance that a lot of their hands are being misplayed and they just refuse to admit it.

They may being value betting too thin too often or making too many big calls or whatever....and writing it off as running bad and running into big hands when really they just arent paying attention to the "results' of a lot of their hands and they never changed their assumptions and made the proper adjustments to their game.

Raising got us the nut low result: incredibly multiway offering immense IO to the world with a low SPR where we often handcuff our postflop skillz by being put to undesired commitment decisions ASAP. Limping to reraise avoids that nut low result. We either get to reraise which sets up a trivially easy awesome spot, or we see a 8way limped pot with an SPR of ~20+ which allows us to use our postflop skillz to play poker over multiple streets while not being handcuffed.

GbutyoucandowhatyouwantG

Ban with this endless awful advice

So your costing yourself massive value on regular basis. To avoid "nut low situation". Which we both know is super rare. Even in the loosest games.

How in the world is raising preflop in EP and going multiway OOP "super rare"? It's completely the opposite: it's the *standard* result.

Look, if a raise in EP is getting you HU or at worst 3ways the majority of the time, by all means, do that. That's not standard in any LLSNL game I've ever played in.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Definition of brick wall. Enjoy your 4bb/hr. Blame slipping WR on changing environment.

Pre is ok maybe $17-18 in EP.
Flop Im always Cbet with this hand, sucks its multiway but cmon

Though spot,,I think Id probably call this..THis might be stretching it but You said you tanked a little on the V2 shove , I would assume V1 saw this as weakness.

I let this go because it’s pretty easy for someone to have 5x here. I’d feel dirty about it though. Edit: not sure I’m good enough to fold in game given pot size. I’m really on the fence here.

Also LOL @ gg pimping his 100% limping strat with AA. Raising like a normal player and getting a tough decision sometimes does not mean we should adopt a value torching strategy. Not saying LRR is always terrible, but it’s not a good default strategy, it’s an option to adopt under specific table conditions.